Marriage Advice Please...

#1 Feb 8th, 2019, 18:31
Join Date:
Feb 2019
Location:
Not Provided Yet
Posts:
5
  • jimsalmon is offline
#1

Hello - this is my first posting on IndiaMike. What an incredibly informative website. Why didn't I find this 3 weeks ago?!

Can someone please help with our current family dilemma, & please accept my apologies for what is really a repeat of various topics, but having spent the last 3 hours reading as much as I can, I can't decide the answer. Here is our dilemma...

We have just returned from India. We visited for our son Mike's wedding to Karishma. Mike - 27, UK National & Christian (although more akin to Hindu beliefs), married Karishma - 28, Indian National & Hindu (with an amazingly tolerant view of all religions).

We have been so focused on preparing for the spouse visa that we overlooked the problems in registering the marriage. Karishma had visited the Registrar's office (in Jaipur) beforehand & was told that she simply needed to bring in photos / invitations / various papers etc after the ceremony. It now seems apparent that there was some misunderstanding here with the assumption that this was a Hindu / Hindu marriage & would be registered under the Hindu Marriage Act. Obviously this is not the case, & we can now see that we should have gone along the Special Marriage Act route.

Suffice to say that we have been subjected to so many different opinions & inappropriate payment requests (I've managed to maintain my politeness but only just!), & now reading through your topics I can see further potential problems with the lack of a Certificate of No Objection / Impediment, despite the High Commission advice. We were also guided along the Arya conversion route but stopped when requests for cash increased & money was requested before any results. Oh - what an incredible learning curve...!    

Mike is now home with us & has the problem of only being able to return for 3 or 4 days hopefully in 30 days, otherwise his job is at risk.

Our current view is that they should apply to register the marriage under the Special Marriage Act, providing such application can be made by Karishma (without Mike having to attend) with all papers necessary signed by Mike. He can then return 30 days later to attend at the Registrar's office. I am however now worried about the lack of any No Objection Certificate & the fact that this is likely not accepted by the Registrar.

We have been advised of same day certificates ? - possibly from Delhi office ? ...but I have seen no official advice on this & whether this would apply to Mike & Karishma's circumstances. 

I have also read on this forum re. marrying under the Indian Christian Marriage Act, & this seems like an unusual possibility since this is similar to a UK Christian wedding with certificate issued - or at least certified - by the curate & so no need to visit the Registrar's office ? - but please can someone tell me if I am missing something here.

One final possibility is using an advocate who we were talking to at the end of 2 long days at the Registrar's office, & who was introduced to us by someone who works in the office & overheard Karishma's conversations. I am tempted to engage this person to assist with the intial submission of papers & attendance 30 days later, & obviously pay his fee & any associated expenses. I accept however that this carries risks.

If you have managed to read through to this point then I thank you & welcome any helpful advice!

Many thanks.

Jim Salmon

PS - I will never, never, ever moan about the UK legal system again... nor the traffic...

  





#2 Feb 9th, 2019, 04:56
Join Date:
Aug 2010
Location:
United Kingdom
Posts:
1,078
  • ukdoctor is offline
#2
Where did the marriage take place Was it in the temple or the church?
#3 Feb 9th, 2019, 07:57
Join Date:
Aug 2006
Location:
Homeless
Posts:
20,566
  • nycank is offline
#3
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimsalmon View Post

We have been so focused on preparing for the spouse visa that we overlooked the problems in registering the marriage.

I have also read on this forum re. marrying under the Indian Christian Marriage Act, & this seems like an unusual possibility since this is similar to a UK Christian wedding with certificate issued - or at least certified - by the curate & so no need to visit the Registrar's office ? -

but please can someone tell me if I am missing something here.


PS - I will never, never, ever moan about the UK legal system again... nor the traffic...
Ahem ! Ahem !

Someone dropped the ball ! Most probably the bride; or her family. Your post is short on details <-------- Smiley here

Solemnization of marriage, and registration are two different functions.

Special Marriage Act, is a non-religious marriage + registration rolled into one. SMA requires giving notice 30 days prior to marriage. Post Hoc marriages are registered, and infact more marriages are registered post-hoc. What is missing from your post are the following
  • What kind of Marriage ? Arya Samaj, Vaishnav or other ?
  • Under which jurisdiction ? and/or City ?
  • Where is the residence of the bride and/or the family ?

While it is true that under certain circumstances, in New Delhi they do issue certificates, this is not one that qualifies for expedited service. It only applies to Khap-panchayat interference cases.

The Christian Marriage Act is a British Era draconian act implemented throughout the Empire in 1872. It is still on the books, lacking any reform

There is always a plan B The islands which were former colonies
#4 Feb 9th, 2019, 14:36
Join Date:
Oct 2004
Location:
Chennai, India
Posts:
70,815
  • Nick-H is offline
#4

Marriage Advice Please...

People who can pay the additional expenses, whatever that may amount to, usually have a registrar attend their Hindu marriage and make the entry in the register on the spot. I don't know when the get the certificates printed up. I guess it must take a few days.

Having and registering a Hindu marriage as such, in circumstances where it might later be held that one party was/is not a Hindu, is generally advised against here. Not something I have strong feelings about, but I do strongly advise thorough reading of the Hindu marriage act before agreeing to be bound by it.

As nycank says, the special marriage act is usually a device under which people have a civil non-religious marriage and registration rolled into one. Like a Register-Office marriage in UK. I've read it too many times. It's online and easily found. I seem to remember that, the last time it was discussed here, it was drawn to my attention that it can be used to register weddings solemnised in some other way. ??? and check out the act itself.

And then... There are local marriage acts, which is why nycank asks "where?" He's good at that stuff!
~
Life gets aadhar every day.
.
#5 Feb 9th, 2019, 14:50
Join Date:
Sep 2001
Location:
Land that shakes and bakes.
Posts:
15,830
  • edwardseco is offline
#5
The bride's family was too trusting. My relations didn't trust me an inch. As Nick describes they had the Registrar come to the wedding so that it would be legal in my domicile. Could do the 30 day routine. Since some countries don't do the no object shtick for that a letter from the embassy or such usually suffices. The real headache comes when you do the UK side. But, don't think about that..
#6 Feb 9th, 2019, 17:38
Join Date:
Oct 2004
Location:
Chennai, India
Posts:
70,815
  • Nick-H is offline
#6

Marriage Advice Please...

There shouldn't be anything at all to do on the UK side. They, unlike, say Germany, do not care who their citizens marry or where.
#7 Feb 9th, 2019, 18:54
Join Date:
Aug 2012
Location:
Dubai/Hannover/Trivandrum
Posts:
332
  • namaskaram is offline
#7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick-H View Post They, unlike, say Germany, do not care who their citizens marry or where.
We have a strong right to marry whoever we want :-). The paperwork is a huge hassle and we have to stick to the marriage rules in the respected country if we marry abroad and the problem of the OP would be a huge one with a German. But that just as a side note.

The biggest problem (I think) in the case of the OP is that India's law does not allow marriages under the Hindu Marriage Act when one is not a Hindu. BUT if it happens (and they let it happen) they somehow recognise it as a legal marriage anyway. It is not just invalid unfortunately. At least that is what I have seen in similar cases.

To register a Hindu marriage under the SMA might not be possible (wann't there a case here on IM where it was not possible?) but would be a good way out of this situation. (Not an option for a German ;-).)

Is there any chance that your son gets a certificate showing that he is a Hindu and was that already before the marriage?
#8 Feb 9th, 2019, 20:52
Join Date:
Oct 2004
Location:
Chennai, India
Posts:
70,815
  • Nick-H is offline
#8
Quote:
Originally Posted by namaskaram View Post We have a strong right to marry whoever we want :-)
Of course, I didn't mean that you don't, just that your government is one of the ones that wants to know about it. Offtopic: Do they want to know if the married couple do not want to go to Germany?
Quote:
Is there any chance that your son gets a certificate showing that he is a Hindu and was that already before the marriage?
It sounds good to me, although there is always the chance of some "authority" claiming that one has to be born a Hindu. As with all contracts, none of this matters unless or until something goes wrong or some difficult official gets it into their head to be be extra difficult.
#9 Feb 9th, 2019, 23:37
Join Date:
Feb 2019
Location:
Not Provided Yet
Posts:
5
  • jimsalmon is offline
#9

Thank you...

Many thanks for replies.

'Wedding' took place at a wedding venue, so no temple or church. 

Yes - definitely something was very overlooked! Bride lives in Jaipur. Hindu rituals - but that's also showing my extreme lack of knowledge, because I can't say anything more specific.

The 'Plan B' - Antigua? - may be a final option - but I fear that getting a visa for Karishma will be difficult as she was unsuccessful with 2 visitor visa applications for the UK.

We did look at Hindu conversion for Mike, but outside the Registrar's buildings the costs started to go higher & the certificate provided was a joke.

Currently looking deeper at the Christian wedding option, so if any success I will add details on here. Also looking at getting a Certificate of No Impediment if possible, since I've read the horror stories on here re. not having this. Maybe then Mike can return with 2 plans - Indian Christian Marriage Act in a church or Special Marriage Act in the Registrar's office - & see if either works.

Failing all that - try for a fiancee visa & they get married here - good advice since they intend to live here.

Thanks all - it's actually comforting to know that others have equal problems.

Jim

#10 Feb 9th, 2019, 23:46
Join Date:
Oct 2004
Location:
Chennai, India
Posts:
70,815
  • Nick-H is offline
#10
Quote:
'Wedding' took place at a wedding venue, so no temple or church.
What sort of piece of paper did you get?
#11 Feb 10th, 2019, 01:43
Join Date:
Aug 2010
Location:
United Kingdom
Posts:
1,078
  • ukdoctor is offline
#11
@ Jim. The only way out seems to see if the marriage was legitimate or not..

I have attended many weddings in a similar situation..( In fact my own wedding was as a british citizen of Indian origin marrying an Indian national. i am christian and my wife is hindu)

In all the cases the rituals etc at the wedding venue were just to keep the family happy and for some entertainment for the visitors ( sorry to be blunt)

Every couple that i know either had already done a civil marriage overseas before coming to India ( or was planning to do the same after going back ) if they were of different religions .

Or

Like in my case had got married under the special marriage act.

It is possible for hindu to marry a christian in India in the church via the christian marriage act . However we decided not to go for the special marriage act as the plan was for my missus to come back with me .

In a SMA act the marriage and the registration happens in front of the registrar with adequate notice period etc.

This does seem to have more legal standing than a marriage somewhere else and then trying to get it registered with the registrar especially if between a citizen and non citizen.

PS: I hope you have started researching the complexity of the spouse visa to the UK for your daughter in law.

Her situation is far more complex than others as she has an adverse immigration history ( visa denied in the past )

Every single document you submit Should be original and not.a photocopy..

They will have to prove the legaility and also legitimacy of their marriage.

Legality is easier as once you get the marriage certificate it is legal.

For legitimacy , i would suggest maintaining call records/photographs/travel together /stay together and provide as much info as you can .

The longer they can prove they have travelled /lived /spent time together the better .

I provided

1. Airline tickets for my trips to India
2.proof of flights inside india ( single ticket with both our names )
3. Poof of ceremony / wedding reception.
4. Proof of hotel stays .

In the olden days a couple of wedding photos and the marriage certificate was all that was needed. But they are very careful due to all the sham marriages nowadays.

Your son also has to satisfy the financial / accomodation requirements ( Ask your son to keep.every single payslip /bank statements etc ) and your daughter in law will need and english language test and also a TB test from accredited agencies before she can put in the application..

PS: My information is correct as of 2018
#12 Feb 10th, 2019, 02:09
Join Date:
Sep 2001
Location:
Land that shakes and bakes.
Posts:
15,830
  • edwardseco is offline
#12
You could SMA without mentioning the prior wedding. Say nothing, know nothing and just to head off a potential problem get the no objection letter..
#13 Feb 10th, 2019, 07:32
Join Date:
Aug 2006
Location:
Homeless
Posts:
20,566
  • nycank is offline
#13

Do as I say, not as I do

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimsalmon View Post Bride lives in Jaipur. Hindu rituals - but that's also showing my extreme lack of knowledge, because I can't say anything more specific.

The 'Plan B' - Antigua? - may be a final option - but I fear that getting a visa for Karishma will be difficult as she was unsuccessful with 2 visitor visa applications for the UK.
You think the Christian Marriage Act is your son's ticket out of the jam, then rethink it again. Your bottleneck will still be the same registrar.

I think bases are loaded.

There are many island nations that do not require visa, or have evisa for Indian citizens. I have in the past listed some of those, in these threads. Do take a look.
#14 Feb 10th, 2019, 14:08
Join Date:
Oct 2004
Location:
Chennai, India
Posts:
70,815
  • Nick-H is offline
#14

Marriage Advice Please...

Same with Special Marriage Act: same registrar.

But it could still be tried. They might accept that, as the Hindu marriage is not valid under Hindu Marriage Act (not two Hindus), there never was a marriage, so now the couple want to get married under SMA.

Or take a holiday in nycank's favourite Islands
#15 Feb 10th, 2019, 15:34
Join Date:
Aug 2012
Location:
Dubai/Hannover/Trivandrum
Posts:
332
  • namaskaram is offline
#15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick-H View Post Of course, I didn't mean that you don't, just that your government is one of the ones that wants to know about it. Offtopic: Do they want to know if the married couple do not want to go to Germany?It sounds good to me, although there is always the chance of some "authority" claiming that one has to be born a Hindu. As with all contracts, none of this matters unless or until something goes wrong or some difficult official gets it into their head to be be extra difficult.
Sorry, I misunderstood you in that point .
A marriage in a foreign country does not have to be registered in Germany at all. One is married. But it might be quite useful to have a German marriage certificate (about the foreign marriage.) Makes life much easier as any authority in Germany could question an Indian marriage certificate. And to have the Indian certificate checked, let's say 30 years later, could be a big hassle.


Back to the OP. The problem with another marriage is that the son is already married! And one is not allowed to get married again, not even to the same person. And from what I know, India still regards these marriages as legal although the basis (not being a Hindu under the HMA) was against the law. That was the case in all three German/Indian cases that I read about. One couple had a divorce before they married under the SMA.

It is absolutely possible to marry as a converted Hindu. No need to be born as one. There are sects which do not accept converts but that has nothing to do with the HMA, for which conversion is fine.

Maybe the registrar would be fine with a conversion that is done even after the marriage? One could probably say that he was a Hindu but did not have a certificate beforehand.

For a conversion certificate it would need a trustworthy organisation which is not too strict with the date on it... I had gone to one of the three organisations that are recognised by Kerala.

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Forum Rules»
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2
© IndiaMike.com 2018
Page Load Success