Hello to fellow travelers

#16 Aug 9th, 2018, 05:33
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#16
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Originally Posted by Nick-H View Post ...I think it better to discard sinister out-of-date associations...
Wish it were that easy. But having endured the world of Joe McCarthy and all of its embedded psychoses, and finding myself now back in a similar world with similar patterns of madness, it's tough to shake the old associations when they echo so loudly today.
Walt Whitman - Song of Myself

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
#17 Aug 9th, 2018, 10:01
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#17
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Originally Posted by hfot2 View Post But being called a fellow traveler is not necessarily welcome by everyone here.
I had no idea about it, and am sure 99% of world will see fellow traveller as just that, fellow traveller. This sensitivity to outdated stuff to the extent of cautioning someone not to use it, that to on a travel site, is akin to all the stuff and people you so despise, basically same side of the coin.
If you find my posts confrontationist, please bear, I am an old frustrated guy who has nothing better to do than sit on rocking chair and curse the world whole day
#18 Aug 9th, 2018, 13:04
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#18
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Originally Posted by jituyadav View Post I had no idea about it, and am sure 99% of world will see fellow traveller as just that, fellow traveller. This sensitivity to outdated stuff to the extent of cautioning someone not to use it, that to on a travel site, is akin to all the stuff and people you so despise, basically same side of the coin.
I normally want to stay clear of icky-messy stuff But.... Jitu, Some words are like dog-whistle. Those don't ever go away to people who have endured it. It colors one's outlook, and even to travel. This is akin to people who directly or indirectly were impacted by Indira Gandhi's Emergency* ! Those things just don't go away. Travel does not happen in a vacuum.





[* For most of teens it was defining political coming-of-age moment; And to Sikhs in Delhi, was the BlueStar/IG's death aftermath was turning point]

PS: Bubbling under the surface, there are lots of latent biases that tourists display when they come to India- Both desis (local) and firangs (foreigners)
#19 Aug 9th, 2018, 14:27
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#19
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Originally Posted by nycank View Post Jitu, Some words are like dog-whistle. Those don't ever go away to people who have endured it.
As far as I can understand, the term was used to describe person sympathetic to communism, that is it. Unless a word is specifically created to put someone down and which has brought enough traumatic experiences, I see no reason not to just let go.

In this instance, so what if a person is sympathetic to communist, how is hate towards one political ideology different from hate towards other religion or race, and how did a made up reference become so untouchable and sensitive! It is like I call 'partners' all those who support Jihad, and then get hurt every time someone calls me his or her partner.

Sorry nycank and hfot, to me this is lame, weight of unnecessary political propaganda being carried on way beyond its usefulness.
#20 Aug 9th, 2018, 18:24
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#20
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Originally Posted by jituyadav View Post As far as I can understand, the term was used to describe person sympathetic to communism, that is it.

In this instance, so what if a person is sympathetic to communist, how is hate towards one political ideology different from hate towards other


Sorry nycank and hfot, to me this is lame, weight of unnecessary political propaganda being carried on way beyond its usefulness.
The problems of wikipedia ! You will not get it ! Maybe I'll move to Masala on this...maybe not
#21 Aug 9th, 2018, 18:31
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#21
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Originally Posted by nycank View Post The problems of wikipedia !
Maybe

I think I will not get it if it is more complicated then what wiki says, but would like your insight for sure. Apologies if it really is such a big psychological issue.
#22 Aug 9th, 2018, 19:57
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#22
I also did not know what the term meant. However, it IS a loaded term for those who lived through those years. People lost their jobs, their livelihood, their family, because of it.

I am inclined to agree with Jitu that its use in this thread here is innocently oblivious.

Jitu, if the words "bhakt" or "liberal" were to be used as terms deciding the fate of your entire family.... and those of every person you knew or had ever met as "fellow travellers".... would that make it comprehensible ?
#23 Aug 9th, 2018, 20:43
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#23
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Originally Posted by theyyamdancer View Post People lost their jobs, their livelihood, their family, because of it.
How? After WW2, the american economy did exceptionally well, in fact, 1950's was one of the best decade for economy, so when did all what you mentioned happen?

The only people, perhaps to have been hit bad were small farmers who had to let go of their land as the era of 'BIG' began and consolidation started. I wonder was the term made popular so that small farmers woes do not gather attention and they are branded 'fellow travellers', sort of like 'anti national' tab that everyone who questions government here is given.

Quote:
Jitu, if the words "bhakt" or "liberal" were to be used as terms deciding the fate of your entire family.... and those of every person you knew or had ever met as "fellow travellers".... would that make it comprehensible ?
I am a liberal, so if anyone calls me that, why would I bother. My family has fair share of bhakts, so if anyone calls me bhakt, how does that matter, should I kill myself over some ignorant stupid?

On the other hand, if I give the term 'fellow traveller' to to an ideology, and then make a huge fuss about someone using this term, what kind of a nonsense will that be. You give a disparaging meaning to already existing phrase, then expect everyone to just never mention it
#24 Aug 9th, 2018, 22:27
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#24
Some time ago in these pages a poster used the term “chinaman” and was roundly berated for it. In all innocence I came to his defense and asked what the problem was. I was besieged, battered, and browbeaten by a perfect storm of sanctimonious twaddle informing me that I was out of touch and that people of Chinese origin now find the term offensive, and I had better shape up or else…

Well, it’s payback time, boys and girls. Now’s the time for my little shower of sanctimonious twaddle.

Problem is, all I set out to do was suggest to OP that he had used a term some people find offensive. I agree that the use of that phrase was innocent in context, but it might serve him to know he’s using a loaded term.

Some respondents have suggested that this stuff is all outdated, and doesn’t mean anything, and didn’t mean anything at the time, and anyway it was only an American thing. One person kindly disproved the last point. Others have had the sensitivity to see that there is indeed a case to answer, weak though it may be, and that the term is freighted with meaning that one might prefer to avoid. Only one seems to have had a visceral understanding of the weight of the phrase.

Some seem serenely to imagine that being called a fellow traveler can’t have had any real effect, because Americans were making lots and lots of money at the time. I cannot imagine what that has to do with anything. It seems to bespeak a willful inability to grasp the complexities of the situation.

Since they seem unable to understand circumstances outside their limited frame of reference, perhaps an analogy closer to home might make the point: being called a fellow traveler during the McCarthy years was like being identified as a beef eater at a BJP rally – everyone at the rally might be prospering because the economy is on an uptick; but the beefeater’s life, one way or another, is over.

That said, I'm sure Nitin from Ahmedabad never intended nor expected any of this uproar. I suppose it’s a worthwhile introduction to IndiaMike, though. It’s all so very confusing, isn’t it? Blockheadedness and brilliance co-exist in equal measure. And the amazing thing is that those who are blockheads today turn out to be brilliant tomorrow. So strap in, Nitin: it’s going to be a bouncy ride.
#25 Aug 9th, 2018, 23:07
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#25
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Originally Posted by hfot2 View Post Some time ago in these pages a poster used the term “chinaman” and was roundly berated for it. In all innocence I came to his defense and asked what the problem was. I was besieged, battered, and browbeaten by a perfect storm of sanctimonious twaddle informing me that I was out of touch and that people of Chinese origin now find the term offensive, and I had better shape up or else…
No idea which page, surely another instance of much ado about nothing.

Quote:
Some seem serenely to imagine that being called a fellow traveler can’t have had any real effect, because Americans were making lots and lots of money at the time. I cannot imagine what that has to do with anything. It seems to bespeak a willful inability to grasp the complexities of the situation.
My response was specific to what TD had commented, and that related to jobs and livelihood, so do look back and maybe you will get the connection.

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Since they seem unable to understand circumstances outside their limited frame of reference,
I am all for enlightenment,. As of now, all I know is that one fine day someone who hated 'communists' decided to name 'communist sympathisers' as 'fellow travellers'. Soon the term became a curse word in the world of politics and anyone when called a 'fellow traveller' went boohoo (or was the person also attacked and killed)...Did I miss anything?

Quote:
perhaps an analogy closer to home might make the point: being called a fellow traveler during the McCarthy years was like being identified as a beef eater at a BJP rally – everyone at the rally might be prospering because the economy is on an uptick; but the beefeater’s life, one way or another, is over.
Hmmm, I will reserve my comment on this.

(The difference is that beef eater is invented by aggressor to shame and hurt victim. In your instance, the word was invented by the same people who got hurt by it being used on themselves ...ignore if it does not make any sense, it is sleep time.)
#26 Aug 9th, 2018, 23:27
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#26
Wait...

So this phrase implies a certain sympathy towards communist ideology? Fine. Nothing wrong with that. Communists welcome here along with the rest.

I wonder what our new member thinks of all this! Poor guy, of whatever political persuasion he may be, thought he'd joined a travel site!
~
Life gets aadhar every day.
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#27 Aug 9th, 2018, 23:29
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#27
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Originally Posted by jituyadav View Post No idea which page, surely another instance of much ado about nothing.
Easily researched. I assume you haven't gone to the trouble because it's bedtime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jituyadav View Post My response was specific to what TD had commented, and that related to jobs and livelihood, so do look back and maybe you will get the connection.
Yes, and TD's comment carries the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theyyamdancer View Post ...People lost their jobs, their livelihood, their family, because of it...
Or perhaps you think loss of job and livelihood, not to mention possible imprisonment, are inconsequential.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jituyadav View Post (The difference is that beef eater is invented by aggressor to shame and hurt victim. In your instance, the word was invented by the same people who got hurt by it being used on themselves ...ignore if it does not make any sense, it is sleep time.)
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've been overcome by sleepiness. Otherwise you'd surely realize that a term used as a pejorative and as a threat is a vicious bludgeon no matter what its origin.
#28 Aug 9th, 2018, 23:40
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#28
Jitu, I am not American, and have never even been to America, but even I, along with countless others who lived through the period or the TV programmes of the following decade or two, are familiar with the words are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the communist party? Check it out.

Now, I guess, being a friend of Mr Putin would be a great career move! Fine man that he is.
#29 Aug 10th, 2018, 00:15
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#29
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Originally Posted by Nick-H View Post ...Now, I guess, being a friend of Mr Putin would be a great career move!...
Only if you have orange hair and wear absurdly long red neckties.
#30 Aug 10th, 2018, 00:36
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