Vipassana Centers in India

anar

thanks atala. i was told it tends to get cold in the mountains (even in the summer) and the sleeping mats(?) are a bit manky and it may be a good idea to bring a sleeping bag (which can be donated to the centre at the end of the retreat). will definitely pack a cushion or two - anything to make it less of a hardship (and i'm not even a westerner)!

atala

Oh, I did not notice you were Indian. Then you won't be disturbed much by all the farting and burping and not keeping silence supposedly happening in courses in India

To bring your own bedding is always a good idea.

anar

very funny! (not)

atala

For Westerners who are not used to the unsuppressed relieving of those natural urges in social situations, they can be a big obstacle to overcome in one's mind during meditation, a lot of aversion can build up and manifest around the hearing of these sounds. That is what I meant: It is probably easier for an Indian person to accomodate these experiences during meditation without too much aversion.

anar

i fall somewhere in between indian and western and i think it will take some getting used to for me! more than anything else, it would be distracting, no more.

thanks for clarifying your remark, atala. and for bringing this up - i would never have thought about it as a potential problem.

what about food? i'm told you are given very little to eat. i don't eat huge amounts but i do need my three meals a day! it's going to be hard enough giving up smoking for ten days...however, my mind's made up and there's nothing that's going to stop me.

atala

That is good that nothing will stop you. There is enough food, two meals, one morning and one before noon. You can take as much as you like. While too much is known to hinder concentration, you will find that out by yourself, how much is right for you. In the evening you get fruit and tea, instead of a complete meal. You can make do with it, since your attention will be drawn on other objects than food. It is actually very helpful, to observe how easily you can overcome addiction. That is a great strength of the Goenka method.

In case you have a condition which requires you to eat frequent meals or snacks, this will be accomodated, but you need to tell that on your application form.

atala

A really nice center to do the 10-day-course is Dehra Dun, I heared. One has to cross a bridge to some kind of island, and the place is very inspiring I was told.
http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/schsalila.shtml

Bodhgaya is a nice and quiet place outside the pilgrimage season (Dec-Feb)
http://www.bodhi.dhamma.org/about.html

Madhu10

The whole point of meditating is trying not to have a "motive" for mediatating. The whole excercise is to stop that wanting.
I have done both the Chaiya and Goenka meditations and I can say that it is a personal choice in what may appeal to you. The best point of both the teachings is that its secular...you don't need to convert to learn these teachings.

Its not just the westerners looking for this...the Chaiya center mainly caters to Thai folks and Dhamma centers in India have more Indians there. Sometimes I feel unless you understand the cultural context of some of these teachings you will not really agree to all that is being said. Though you don't have to agree with all...take what works for you.

Yes there are some folks who have a breakdown and if you know yourself that you have too much to deal with then you should talk to the monks (at Chaiya) or the teachers at a Dhamma center and see if this is right for you. Trying this will have different effects for people and since each one of us is unique we should find what works for us.

Its like going to the gym and looking at all the machines and saying what works for me. Also, if you use the equipment not knowing how to correctly you do end up doing more damamge. Meditation is exercise of the mind, but you need to learn what works for you best.

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atala

I think it is time to address this post here, since it is so negative on the Goenka style vipassana.

I think, and it is my personal opinion, that you do more harm than service to the Dhamma by speaking out this way on a system that has brought tens of thousands of people in touch with the Buddha's Dhamma and with themselves. In addition, you are talking from the vantage point of one who has done one or several of his courses, and probably benefitted in some way. (If you say you did not, you would really break one of the shilas, of not speaking the truth. Even if the course made you angry throughout the whole ten days, you would have learnt at least to observe that anger and how it manifests in your body, feelings and mind.)

There are many questionable things about the style and content in which the courses are taught. It is also questionable whether it is Vipassana at all what is done there, and whether it is really vedanas (feelings) that are observed. But these are unimportant technicalities for the beginner.

Mr. Goenka is doing a great service to mankind and to the Dhamma by having introduced his system of meditation. Remember, it came about all by itself, thru person-to-person propaganda. He did not plan to set up an organization or a mission or anything like that. It was the great experiences that people taking the courses had, that required the setting up of the system of teaching the way it is done now.

Personally, I am also critical especially of what Mr. Goenka teaches verbally. But people who have not done a course, would not know that the teachings consist only of an evening talk which is mainly aimed at motivating the participants to stick with their commitment to do all of the ten day course. the teaching is really separate from the practice during the day, and done in some rambling talk as Indians give them.

Mr. Goenka is a Marwari, a Rajasthani businessman. He is a sales person, not a wisdom teacher. So all he really does in his talks, is being himself and doing his best to sell you his merchandise. As one is familiar with public talks from Indians, there are bound to be some exaggerations and half-truths.

What is endearing is that Mr Goenka is completely open about his previous and present failures. Like he tells what an angry and horribly arrogant person he was before he took himself his first ten-day-course, and how doing this opened him up to see his own misconduct with his family and friends. (He was a big shot chairman of a Hindu society in Burma when he started out.)

What I find troubling with this post by livin-in-india, is the tone it is written in. It is probaly venting some pent up frustration he or she had at the time. Someone who meditates for 13 years should be more aware of what is happening and what he or she is doing by speaking in such outrage. Since the nick-name is pointing to it, living in India probably takes its toll on this person.

Since this forum is addressing people who are most likely newcomers to the technique, it should be pointed out that most of the "teachings" that the poster critizes, are not part of the evening talks. Some of them are misunderstoodor misinterpreted by the poster. Shila is certainly morality or right conduct. What is the difference there? In order to understand shila, you need to understand karma (action). It is evident that in a beginners' course you would get only some rough outline to go by, and you do not even need to assimilate those points of view, and hardly anyone does, except those who go for dozens of follow up courses, and then it is their more or less mature, or at least to some extent free, choice.

One valid point that the poster brings up is whether it is a good idea for a Westerner to do such a course in India. I surely would not recommend that to a person who experiences some kind of deeper troubles or has frustrations from their stay in India. The reason is that you get Indian teachers here in India who do not understand the Western type minds and personalities. But for someone who is experiencing himself or herself as a normal person with the normal ups and downs, it would be perfectly alright, if you are a bit familiar with the ways Indians behave. Since there would be Indians participating in the course, you could expect them to disobey the rule of keeping silence, and not even making eye-contact.

About problems with cross-legged sitting, which is too forced for Westerners. Ask for a chair on your application form, if this is a problem. If you ask for it later during the course, it is more difficult to get a chair.

Goenka's interpretation of pain as negative karma appearing and clearing away is indeed wrong according to the Buddha. The Buddha taught the middle path between over-indulgence and mortification, and clearly pointed out that self-mortification is a downward leading path. Yet, it is a fact of life that pain appears in any position that we keep for a prolonged time. So it has to be dealt with by every meditator. And Mr Goenka tries to motivate beginners by saying that it helps them in the long run, if they can endure some pain of sitting as long as possible. When it is not possible anymore, one should definitely change one's position.

How did you know that the participants around you were deeply disturbed at the end of the course? Could it be that you attracted them all to stand around you, if you were disturbed yourself and gave voice to your disturbance? That happens, since negativity draws out other people's negativity as well.

Just a few days ago I met people who did a course in Jaipur (the best center in India, as I am told again and again). They were heading for Kathmandu to do it a second time around. One can get addicted to these courses, and one really only understands what the technique is about in one's second or third course.

Afterwards it is always good to diversify, and try other techniques as well. This way you develop new aspects and find tools that may fit you better, as Madhu10 mentioned in the comparison with a work-out place. This earth is our place to work out our issues. Meditation and Vipassana are among the best self-help tools for this.

Frog

"I think, and it is my personal opinion, that you do more harm than service to the Dhamma by speaking out this way on a system that has brought tens of thousands of people in touch with the Buddha's Dhamma and with themselves."

How? Did the Buddha sign up for any meditation course? Did he follow any meditation system passed down from others?

It seems to me that he found out for himself and rejected all things past - which must include all influences of 'ways' to meditate! (as did others like Milarepa, meditating alone in his cave...) How has a meditation system got anything to do with the Buddha?

If there is a 'real' way of meditating, surely it is to see if it's possible to die to all of the past, that is to go beyond all influences which must include any method of meditating taught...

To say that meditation courses connect people with what the Buddha said is too broad a statement. Sure there is a lot of truth in Buddhism, but also these days lots & lots of B.S. e.g. Do you really think the Buddha gave worship to statues? Did he go to temples? I feel that if the Buddha were alive today he'd be ashamed at what has become of what he taught

atala

You are addressing a number of points here which are quite interesting and would deserve a good discussion, but this is not really the thread to do so extensively. This thread is about the opportunity that people have to get to know the Goenka system of Vipassana, in India and the world over, whether we agree with the teaching there or not. I think for the ten days of their lives that people spend in these free courses they get quite some experience of self-discovery, and that alone is very valuable. Those courses awakened a whole lot of people to their spiritual search of whom even quite a number have become monks later on, because they wanted to spend their whole life in the cultivation of insight and wisdom. Also some of the people who started Insight meditation centers in America have originally been awakened to their paths thru Goenka-courses. In this sense alone it can easily be said that Mr Goenka has contributed immensely to the revival of interest in the Buddha the world over, but especially also in India.

Now to one spedific question that you address: Did the Buddha relinquish everything, all of the past, and did he not accept any meditation teachers? If you study the life of the Buddha the way he tells it himself in one of his discourses, you would learn, that he defintely had teachers including teachers in meditation:


As to other things you say it is partly polemic which has to be seen in the context of actual historical developments and differentiations come about over 2500 years. Surely there are lots of superstition and wrong views that have crept into the diverse traditions. In what you say there is also wishful thinking that meditation should lead to overcome everything past including itself. What it should do is one thing (namely leading to the overcoming of suffering by complete cessation of clinging to desire), but what it actually does is another, namely showing a practicable path how this is possible step by step in a gradual development of skills and virtues.

One such skill is taught and learnt in one of these courses, to which everyone is free to say no thank you if they do not like it afterwards. Many people do appreciate though.

Just recently I got this e-mail from someone

If you have such a simple tool to give something so substantial to people who are confused in their lives, why go and discredit it? If there was only one person who benefitted from each course ever given, there would still be thousands who have seen a spark of light and have seen what life is or could be about. But yes, there is more than just systems of meditation, institutions, courses and the like. There is life itself which calls every minute of the day to fresh awareness of what is.

karuna

My concern, which probably comes from some kind of work ethic or something, is that any course which distills meditation down to 10 days...well, monks and nuns spend their lives practicing and practicing.

Doesn't this 10 day thing just give a boost to a visitor- it's made difficult enough to make them feel like they've really tried and really achieved something- I sat on a hard floor and didn't speak, that's REAL meditation- but not a lifetime commitment. Enlightenment-lite. Quick fix solutions.

This is want gets my goat about it all. That someone "has" something that someone else doesn't. Following this guru or that guru, believing you are "lacking" in something and someone else has "the way". You could just as easily be a Christian talking about Jesus right there.

Besides which, you may think you have this simple tool and it really works, but if it doesn't work, or has unintended consequences, I think we have a perfect right to say so. If a medicine goes to trial and has severe adverse reactions in a big proportion of people, it is not licenced for use. Meditation isn't subject to such controls and can go on funking up people's lives with impunity, if that's indeed what it does.

Besides that, advice is often vanity. Bruce Lee had it right: the style of no-style, the way of no way. People give themselves the help they need, in the end. Can't bear peddlers of enlightenment who can't see their own selfishness and solipsism. Had an ex like that. Really into self-improvement and thought of no-one but himself- his progress, his peacefulness. Had all the same faults he always had, but he "felt more peaceful". Woop di doo, what a transformation, what a better person you aren't.

The deal is, if you discipline yourself to sit quietly for a certain amount of time and observe your breath, and repeat this process often enough, it may well have beneficial effects on your emotional state and/or cause you to experience what appear to be insights into the nature of yourself and/or the world. I don't think there's much more to it that isn't spin or salesmanship or dogma. A more experienced leader should be there to respond to concerns or queries as they arise, not preach.

There, that was free. And I don't care who you sleep with or how you sit.

__________________
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atala

Nobody needs to do any courses at all, and not everybody requires meditation, and for some it is indeed not good at all. It is like with swimming. It is good if you have learnt it once, but not everyone needs to be a swimmer, even though there are lots of benefits if someone swims regularly. But some drown too, like all the folks in Goa who are most likely swimmers who underestimate the dangers of what they are doing there.

Let me go back one step. I agree of course that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can express it. In my second last mail I responded to someone who was heavily critical but who obviously knew the subject at hand from his own experience. The second person, frog, however, does not seem to have done any of these courses. I responded above with clarifying a few misconceptions (teachers of the Buddha and that he also learnt meditation from them). There is no intenton here at all to convince anyone of anything. I am also not giving advice just like that without beeing asked.

The person whose mail I quoted had wanted to do such a course on his own. I met him while traveling in India.

Allow me to address one of your points at the beginning of your mail, Karuna. About the apparent incomparability of ten day courses with what others, monks and nuns, do all their lives. This concept of doing ten day (or 15 or 20 day) courses has arisen in Burma about 80 years ago, when there was a surge of interest among laypeople to practice meditation after they realised that their monks' practice of meditation was in decline. Most monks there stressed more the learning side rather than the practice side. (Both are valid paths even since the lifetime of the Buddha himself; he himself had adressed the dispute regarding a preceived superiority of scholars versus meditators and vice versa in one of his discourses.)

There was one great very learned monk in Burma, Ledi Sayadaw, who inspired and authorized laypeople, often simple farmers without any learning, to become meditation teachers; he is one source from which this ever increasing interest in Vipassana arose in Burma. There were others too, so that in the first part of the 1900s you found lots of meditation centers in Burma with and without monastics, offering courses of different kinds to laypeople. Since laypeople need to go back to their families and to work, only limited times were required to be offered. That is how the concept of ten-day, 15-days etc courses arose.

There are several different types of Vipassana known now and offered in such courses that have come from Burma. People also go there a lot to take such courses. There is also Mahasi Sayadaw's type of Vipassana and variations thereof, and they are actually intended for anyone interested, but indeed mainly for laypeople. But monastics take these courses too, because even for them it makes a difference whether they sit for an "intensive" or whether they do their regular daily practices for themselves only which also include other duties than just meditating.

gregornot

http://www.dhamma.org/

Vipassana Meditation As Taught By S.N. Goenka
in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin

This is the international home page of the organizations which offer courses in Vipassana Meditation as taught by S.N. Goenka and his assistant teachers in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin

__________________
To conclude with the ever inspiring words of the Buddha:
"If the roots remain untouched and firm in the ground,
a felled tree still puts forth new shoots.

If the underlying habit of craving and aversion is not
uprooted, suffering arises anew over and over again."
~Dhammapada XXIV verse 338

grikoo

What a silly discussion!

If there's anything I've learned in 23 years of daily meditation, it's that all of my thoughts, ideas, and opinions about the practice are completely irrelevant.

Of course, that's just my opinion.