on no-Self and self-confidence (re Buddhism)

volga_volga

On psychological aspects of Buddhism, to be more precise.

I feel that the concept of no-Self (and realising that own ego is part of the conventional reality and leads to suffering, and in order to get relieved from suffering we need to realise the no-Self) is in contradiction with notions of self-esteem and self-confidence. While I am probably close to realise useless-ness of self-esteem (and useless-ness of efforts employed in order to build/support it) I am not prepared to giving up self-confidence... it helps me to get through difficult patches of life.

anyone has an opinion on it?

Volga

bijapuri

wow, what a question to ask a bunch of travel sluts

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lookit me!!!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bijapuri/

Utube fuzzy logic:
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volga_volga

Yeah, I know, this may be a question to a different type of forum... but I am trying to rationalise the number of forums I am visiting, and I like this one, and Dharmsoul assured me there are interested people out here too!

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Vasko

Hi volga,

I'm definitely interested in discussions concerning religion/psychology/philosophy, both professionally and not-so-professionally.

I'm sure there is room on indiamike for these topics, also. I believe, however, that India is sometimes a bit overmysticized. I feel very ambivalent when people talk of "traveling to India to find themselves, its spiritual vibe, etc.". India is a spiritually diverse country, for sure, and the birthplace of many religions. In this sense it has a lot to offer. I think most travelers are content to just experience a few out of the ordinary, semi-mystical experiences that they can safely fit into their Western self-concepts.

The ones who travel to India to "lose themselves" are far outnumbered. Ironically this - like you mentioned (in another thread) - is the goal of both Hinduism and Buddhism.

Anyway, I think people can travel to India with all kinds of spiritual intentions, no problems with that. So far, I've preferred to travel as an observer. I am extremely interested in all the practical things that individuals do to obtain spiritual goals - sadhu culture being one of my favorites.

volga_volga

may be my first impression of travel to India (as mainly "spiritual" travel) was not the most popular one, since the only two places I visited that time, apart from Delhi, were Varanassi and Leh. Since then India in my mind was the country with a large emphasis on religion and "finding yourself"/your own religion, school of thought or mode of life. (I think there was also some festival in Varanassi that time.)

Now I am going to Delhi for work and will have a chance to experience different levels of Indian society and also different aspects of their lives (such as business life).

but what about you, an observer with an interest in religion/psychology/philosophy, do you think being in India have affected you?

dharmasoul

To try and answer your original post –

Hopefully I can help by saying that:

I agree that Buddhism teaches that realizing non-self and eliminating ego will lead to zero suffering, but I think it can be seen as something which is totally detached from self-esteem / self-confidence.

Self-confidence is the belief in one’s own potential and one’s abilities. It can lead to confidence (if used correctly) that one can achieve the goals you set. Self-esteem is a sense of high regard for these capabilities that provide so many opportunities and advantages. Both are both extremely useful and beneficial to practice a spiritual path, as well as (as you point out) help one through difficult patches in life.

But they can be twisted and used in a negative way by - for example - employing false pride through them. False pride is the puffed-up belief that one is superior to others in some way or someone else is inferior, pride that thinks there is an inherently existent ‘I’, or pride that one is superior to one’s equals. These are all negative connotations and only lead to disturbing the equanimity of the mind. Self-confidence can be used without thinking of others as inferior etc. It can be employed in a very neutral manner.

This false pride is all part of the ego (which is also part of the inherently existent ‘I’) and can only cause deception and suffering as it leads a person away from realization of non-self.

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vistet

You can find an interesting discussion on the no-self concept and the struggle to harmonise this with the role of the carismatic guru in Janet Gyatso`s Apparitions of the Self . There is an Indian edition as well.

volga_volga

dharmasoul,

I think you make sense. I will think it over again. thank you.

AvidTrekker

I have pondered over this for a while. Dont know the answer from the Buddhist Point of View.

What I think, from the Hindu (Vedic, more specifically "Advaita") point of view, could be.......

The said "no-self" above is the Universal Self of Advaita thought. It includes everything, it posits that even the entire Universe is alive & breathing (its own breath). It is the "Hiranyagarbha" or "Golden egg" that started all creation & is now present as a subtle memory in all our minds.

If the said "no-self" is realized, one is above all suffering. Even Advaita says that if a jeeva(the limited "me") realizes its true self as "I am everything" it rises above "body feeling"............ hence rises above "body suffering" ("body" implies the body-mind-prana complex).

If your self confidence is based on mental-bodily abilities/accomplishments.... it is bound to receive a dent on the first sign of "failure". If I fail in a task, do I become depressed? Many people obviously do. Some rise to the occasion by saying, never mind.... I will succeed the next time. This is the prompting of the "innervoice/conviction" This actually arises from the "True" self & not the "body ability record".

If one accepts this "inner voice" as that of the true self, then "self-confidence" arises from the "true self".

If one accepts the above "no-self" = "true-self", then both "self-confidence" & "no-self-esteem" arise from the same root. Both are actually the same thing. A person who has realized the ..."no-self" is 100% confident. A person who is still on the journey is (say)70% confident. Both these "confidences" arise from the same "known/unknown self".

As opposed to this idea, a person basing his "confidence" in body-strength" or "money-strength" or "youth-strength" is bound to come to grief when the so-called youth, money, body "go away" becuz, they are ephemeral for all.

I believe that "no-self" = my "real-self". Self esteem arises out of "ego". A person who has realized the no-self will have no "self-esteem" i.e. ego-based ideas. The same person will be fully aware of all things transient, hence will be above all suffering. The confidence level is FULL due to FULL perception.

If this is accepted, then "no-self-esteem" equals "self-confidence" ..... then the "apparent" conflict between the "two" is rendered null.

Volga_Volga, you do not need to give up your self-confidence. Fire on, march on, meditate ON...... success shall be YOURS one day. Self-esteem is ego based. It also translates as "ego-esteem". Self-confidence is "Self" based. This "self" is NOT ego.

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MrsC_772

Forgive my ignorant questions - I'm not a spiritual seeker.

Surely the idea of setting out on a path to seek "enlightenment" is an inherently selfish idea - that "I" will become a better wiser person. So almost by definition, if you're setting out to become better, wiser, enlightened, you're on the wrong track, if enlightenment involves the obliteration of the self?

I can't help but find the idea that only through the elimination of the ego and the self is enlightenment achieved, the idea of enlightenment is distinctly unappealing. It almost suggests you might as well just end it all now.

Apologies if any of this is witch-wood-duck logic (from Monty Python's Holy Grail - the perils of logical reasoning - "if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood, and therefore a witch").

As I say, I'm not really a spiritual person ...

mazha

Hmmm...how about this for comparison: you set out on a path to "love" another person more than yourself. But since you are propelled by you, this is an inherently selfish idea - that "you" are going to love another person more than you. So almost by definition, if you're setting out to fall in love, you're on the wrong track, if love involves liking another person more than you, and not enriching yourself?

You could think of other versions too. Having a baby, helping others, fighting for one's ideas/values/nation etc.

I am sure everyone has doubts about their intentions in all these enterprises that seek to go beyond oneself. But they go and do them anyway, and emerge richer. And in some cases, people also set aside oneself and show great love and dedication and courage and other such wonderful virtues, even though their starting points could be considered as arising from themselves.

The larger point is this: where you start from doesn't matter, the journey, and how you change on the way, is what matters.

Also, in the philosophy surrounding the idea of enlightenment, ending it all now is not the same as losing the ego. If you don't believe/understand/buy-into that philosophy and worldview, enlightenment would never make sense.

Scandojazzbuff

Whatever your motivation is, you are not going to realize 'No Self' or eliminate anything. This whole notion has to be looked at carefully. Why believe in any of these paths or philosophies? What are you lacking? Nobody or teaching will help you. Let it go and see for yourself. But, I doubt you will.

grikoo

It's not exactly that the 'I' is eliminated. The ego continues to function, but does not hold the sway it normally does. It's recognized for the illusory construct that it is, and kept in it's proper place. It comes out to play when you want to interact with the world on a personal level, and goes dormant when not engaged. It doesn't run your life in other words.

Hooray for not being spiritual. You're probably enlightened already!

Frog

Hi Volga, I'd say it depends on what you mean by self confidence. I am slowly starting to understand that trust is an essential thing. Like the Taoist 'Trust in the way'. Could this be part of self confidence?

The belief that whatever the circumstance, however 'bad' or 'good' it is an opportunity to learn and change for the better. That doesn't mean that people automatically learn from each experience, but that there is a opportunity in every moment to do that. It depends on how each moment is perceived. That no matter what happens, "as long as it doesn't kill you, can in fact be all good', even the worst of actions can lead to change. This trust in each moment, the sparingly I've seen it, has lead to self confidence which I think is a good thing. Like I say, depends on what you mean by self confidence...