Manu Smriti (or The Laws of Manu)

Larkilli

"A girl, woman or even aged one cannot do anything independently even in her own house."

"A woman must never be independent. As a child she should depend on father, in her youth on her husband and after his death to her sons."

"If she desires to separate herself from her father, husband, or sons, she would make both her own and her husband's families contemptible."

"She must always be cheerful, clever in the management of household affairs, careful in cleaning her utensils, and economical in expenditure (the amount given to her by the husband)."

"She has to obey her husband or brother whoever takes responsibility of her and she must not insult his memory after his death."

"No sacrifice, no vow, no fast must be performed by women apart from their husbands."

"A woman can emaciate her body by living on pure flowers, roots, and fruit but she must never think of another man after her husband's death or about remarriage."

"She has to be patient, self-controlled and chaste and should strive to fulfill the most excellent duty which is prescribed for wives."

"If a woman desires to have offspring after her husband's death and choses her partner, will lose her place with her husband in heaven."

"Offspring begotten by another man or woman is here not considered lawful, nor is a second husband anywhere prescribed for virtuous women."

"A man can remarry if the wife dies."

"Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males of their families, and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control."

"The husband employs his wife in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in keeping everything clean, in the fulfillment of religious duties, in the preparation of his food, and in looking after the household utensils."

"Women through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this world."

"When creating them, Manu allotted to women, a love of their bed, of their seat and of ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct."

"Whatever be the qualities of the man, a woman is united like a river united with the ocean."

"A husband must be constantly worshiped as a god by a faithful wife, despite that he is destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure elsewhere, or devoid of good qualities."

(Sources HERE and HERE )



[bewilderment] [more shock]

Don't know how to start on this one... but it certainly shocked me quite much when i read it.
It's not a question of being a feminist or else – it's more about being a “humanist” ... even better.. an “earthling-ist”.

Quoting from Wikipedia:
“Friedrich Nietzsche is noted to have said "Close the Bible and open the Manu Smriti. “It has an affirmation of life, a triumphing agreeable sensation in life and that to draw up a lawbook such as Manu means to permit oneself to get the upper hand, to become perfection, to be ambitious of the highest art of living"

An affirmation of life?! I would rather call it an affirmation of gender!
I have to confess that this is the only portion of the Manu Smriti that i probably ever read, so i'm ignorant of the existence of better and/or more enlightening parts – but honestly i don't feel quite encouraged to go any further (hey.. being a woman... i should feel quite lucky already that i can read and write... or even think.. ggrrr...).

Regarding mr. Nietzsche – after reading his opinion on this – my theory that he had serious problems... is just more enforced.

Even in christianity, women have always been the “guilty&dirty” ones but guess what!? All these remarks have been spoken and written by men --- another thought came into my mind now... the Inquisition and all the countless women – ooohhhh.... witches...!!! - burned alive on orders of very compassionate priests (trying my best here to avoid talking as colorful as i should...erhmmm..erhmm.. )

So nothing new here, and certainly i'm not starting this thread to ignite a feminist debate – as i think that actually the core of it goes beyond that, as far as where the land of 'discrimination, ignorance and specisism' goes.

My curiousity though is more about how much followed these “laws” are in today's India, even if (sadly..) i have the feeling that it's not something that unknown, as the reports of female infanticide and sati confirm....

__________________
Animal Voice

“Never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way.”
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capt_mahajan

as laws, close to zero.

do check how old the manu smriti is.

Larkilli

Hey C'tain I already checked on the date, but than i probably should replace the "follow" part with ---> How much are these ideas influencing today's Indian life?

Nick-H

There's a lot of it about, I think.

But check out The Church and the Second Sex by Mary Daly for an assessment of Christianity's dreadful legacy to women.

Isn't it to be expected of ancient stuff that was written by men?

__________________
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Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

capt_mahajan

=crossposted=

Of course they do. Just as history and culture affects everything everywhere else.



Nobody goes around saying 'Because the Manu Smriti says so.. '

(not an expert, but this is akin to saying 'Adam said fig leaves were interesting' so lets wear some, because, come to think of it, this guy predates Adam, or is the Adam in these parts of the world.)

Edit: Slightly facetious, that statement, because Manu is much more important than Adam in this part of the world; was just trying to point out the BCE era of his.


In fact, I would bet a vast number of Indians dont even really know what the Manu Smriti is.

Kingstonian

Wow - I'd heard of the laws of Manu, but never actually read anything about them - glad I saved it til now - if I'd read it when I was younger, it would probably have given me a heart attack!

nayan

Indian society is very very varied. A lot depend upon communities and socio-economic strata.....

So very difficult to say in general how much they affect life... In general rural areas are more backward.

From a bengali urban middle class(mind you... that is not a homogenious entity in itself.... ) point of view(just as "Indian" as a million other combinations of punjabi/marwari/gujrati/mallu/assamese/naga/manipuri/tamil/andhra/oriya/konkani/bihari/pahadi/urban/smalltown/rural/ etc etc etc )

A girl, woman or even aged one cannot do anything independently even in her own house." - A child (girl or boy)is the most influential member of the nuclear family. An adult women if living with parents/in laws, has as much say in family affairs as any other member of the house. In a nuclear family, on most matters her decision prevails over that of her husbands.

"A woman must never be independent. As a child she should depend on father, in her youth on her husband and after his death to her sons." - A child is still dependant on family. Generally she is encouraged to have a career/job(financial independence) as an adult. Emotional dependance still remains on husband/family. Old ladies - unless they have funds of their own, are dependant on their children.

"If she desires to separate herself from her father, husband, or sons, she would make both her own and her husband's families contemptible." - She "separates" from her father lots of times to go away for studing/working in a distant city/country/continent. Does not bring any contempt(rather pride at her accomplishments).
Divorce is still painful for the parties/parents but accepted more and more with passing time

"She must always be cheerful, clever in the management of household affairs, careful in cleaning her utensils, and economical in expenditure (the amount given to her by the husband)." - Ahhhhh Utopia

"She has to obey her husband or brother whoever takes responsibility of her and she must not insult his memory after his death." - if the obeying part was true bengali women would not be famous for being quarrelsome. insulting of a dead ones memory is still not encouraged (this is irrespective of man/woman).

"No sacrifice, no vow, no fast must be performed by women apart from their husbands." - according to the Vedas(I think) a married person can only perform a religious rite together with his/her spouse. ex- Rama could not perform the ashwamedha yagna alone.... he had to create an idol of sita to place beside him. But bengalis donot follow this. Religious rituals are not done as a couple. Certain fasts(shiv ratri) a kept for the well being of ones husband by married women.

"A woman can emaciate her body by living on pure flowers, roots, and fruit but she must never think of another man after her husband's death or about remarriage." - widow remarraige is more
acceptable nowadays than say 40 years ago.

"She has to be patient, self-controlled and chaste and should strive to fulfill the most excellent duty which is prescribed for wives." utopia again

"If a woman desires to have offspring after her husband's death and choses her partner, will lose her place with her husband in heaven." Illegitimate offsprings are not quite acceptable (for anyone). If the offspring is that of a remmariage then I think her place in heaven will be with the latest husband .....

"Offspring begotten by another man or woman is here not considered lawful, nor is a second husband anywhere prescribed for virtuous women." see above

"A man can remarry if the wife dies." - as can a woman these days.

"Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males of their families, and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control." - see above

"The husband employs his wife in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in keeping everything clean, in the fulfillment of religious duties, in the preparation of his food, and in looking after the household utensils." - all these duties and a lot more are expectd of a modern educated wife

"Women through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this world." - I am sure a lot of husbands still think so... only they dont have the courage to say it loud anymore

"When creating them, Manu allotted to women, a love of their bed, of their seat and of ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct." - see above.

"Whatever be the qualities of the man, a woman is united like a river united with the ocean." - I think this means the are supposed to live together in harmony whatever may be their individual charecteristics..... very noble but doesnot always happen.

"A husband must be constantly worshiped as a god by a faithful wife, despite that he is destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure elsewhere, or devoid of good qualities." - a husband is a poor creature... he is more villified than worshiped.

capt_mahajan

wow, detailed reply

One of my great aunts, then about 65 and now gone, had this to say about these fasts- if it for his health (pointing to her husband) , then he should keep it.

nayan

I thought twice before writing about the fast part(none in my family do so).... but in all honesty thought I should include it as still a large percentage observes them.

federica

Personally I found the idea of fasting for your husband quite sweet and romantic. Doing a sacrifice for your beloved one is something honourable.

From the health point of view, your aunt is right, captain

grikoo

I think it certainly has influenced the underlying moral sense of Indians. While many of these laws aren't followed in a strict sense, they do dramatically influence Indian society. Seems to get less and less everytime I visit, but it's definitely there.

I also think this may not be quite as apparent to Indians as it might be to westerners. There's always a great deal about one's own culture that get's missed.

nayan

Manu smriti is a collection of social codes(not only caste based or gender based) prevelant a long time ago in India. Those social codes have undergone changes over the millienia (or two).

Some essense is still to be found in certain basic attitudes....

That it being more apperent to foreigners may be because of ignorance/misinterpretetion or a desire for exotic on the part of forienger than an Indian being unaware about his own culture.

capt_mahajan

Yep. 500BCE or was it 1500BCE? Cant remember

Dilliwala

Quote:

a husband is a poor creature... he is more villified than worshiped.

Your words, or your husband's?

nayan

My husband would never utter such nonsensical words. (well atleast I hope so.... for his own good ... the vile creature )