gurus dark sides.....

gaian

saw a programme on tv, and i got a bit of shock, but dunno how much of it was 100% true:

-mother theresa: the vatican refuses to make the account books public (there are some rumours that the vatican was not 100% ok in that matter), she was a "suffering" freak, that is, she beleived, as many christians do that suffering is good, and she didn't allow the family of the soon-to-be-dead patients to go and visit inside the hospital.
-daila lama has had connection with the cia
-gandhi was actually a racist, didn't like black people and wrote and talked very badly about them.

please don't missunderstand me: i do admire in many ways those peoples deeds, but i think it's good to realize that they were maybe not so pure hearted as we want them to be, they might have some dark sides, and we need to realise, it could be unhealthy to blindly follow a guru/saint etc without any critical thought.
faith is not always better than mind, maybe we need both?

Nick-H

-heaps of controversy about Mother Theresa. A lot of detractors and a of of supporters.

-remember that the dalai lama is a political leader as well as a religious one.

-No idea about Ghandi on this, but I do know that 60 years ago attitudes everywhere where very different

Then it might help if you had something substantial to say, rather than vague comments about a TV program.

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gollum

just take a look at the Mahatma´s self-biography to realize what you saw is wrong...

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gregornot

namaste,
Go with Vipassana http://www.dhamma.org/ there are hundreds of centers worlwide, it's free after course you can donate if you want to. I general give service, help with next course, it helps my pratice SN Goenka sais giving dana (donations is good) but service really help cause there is a lot going on in the background, feom cooking, to being student manager, to just helping with projects that are always going on.

Courses are ten days long no talking for first nine days, this course is for you, not to compare how you are doing with some one else, on tenth day you get to talk noble chatter, a buffer getting ready to deal with outside world.

I strongly recommend it, segrated by sexes, student managers will help with problems of housing, etc, appointments with teacher can be made ever day if problem with mediation or can ask question in between hour sittings.

Course are serious, start at 4:30 am go until 9Pm long breaks for breakfast and lunch. Just a tea break a 5pm and 1 1/2 discourse (talk) about mediation each evening.

Instruction are given in various language depending on course you are taking. English is most common ones given,
enjoy, gregor

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To conclude with the ever inspiring words of the Buddha:
"If the roots remain untouched and firm in the ground,
a felled tree still puts forth new shoots.

If the underlying habit of craving and aversion is not
uprooted, suffering arises anew over and over again."
~Dhammapada XXIV verse 338

batistuta

There are controversies on many religious leaders in India,starting from Sai Baba himself.There is an interesting book called Godmen-conmen which is abt the gurus fake or real.There was a programme on BBC about Sai baba.As far as mother teresa is concerned,there are a lot of detractors among people who have actually met her and seen her exact contributions .
P.s Gregornot dude ,i maybe mistaken but i cant see any connection between vipassana course and this thread which is abt controversail godmen.

Sama

The true guru is within. Yet people on a spiritual path come across people who they think will lead them to liberation. I know I have, but I keep my eyes wide open. Each of my teachers was and is a real human being with many of the same faults that belong to me and everyone else. I recognized my teachers' shortcomings only after the pedestal I made for them shattered and fell. Later on, I approached my teachers with more maturity. If we mature, we enter into teacher/student relationships with our eyes wide open to their human-ness. If we are naive, the teacher/student relationship teaches us many spiritual truths, but the most important lesson to learn is how to find the teacher within ourselves.

From the book The Seeker's Guide...what to avoid in a teacher/guru:

1. The "crazy wisdom" excuse: crazy wisdom is a term some teachers use to condone outrageous or harmful behavior.

2. lack of boundaries: a lack of healthy boundaries leads to abusive relationships of a teacher dominating a student, expecting total subjugation to the teacher. advancement on the spiritual path leads to more openess, not a shutting down or a turning away from familiar things. a good teacher needs only one thing: your committment to your spiritual path. a good teacher will only be interested in your path to freedom and liberation.

3. claims of perfection: don't trust a teacher who says their way is the only way. those who claim perfection expect unquestioned adoration.

4. hiding out: some spiritual paths have such ornate rituals or complex theories that a teacher can hide behind the facade of tradition, like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain -- when the curtain was pulled away the Wizard was just a little man.

A teacher may look the part, sound the part, act the part, but may not really BE the part. Bring your own healthy skepticism and don't be seduced by beautiful language and colorful robes. Even Buddha said not to accept things on face-value, not even his teachings.

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batistuta

well said Yogagal,after reading your post i am reminded of wht Sri Nisarghadatta maharaj emphasises in I am THat.THE true guru is within and other guru's are just signposts for seekers to find thier own being.

PeakXV

Sit at the feet of the master long enough, and they will start to smell. - John Sauget

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Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

crvlvr

enough said.. but, it would help if you told us what kind of TV channel..

Trika_yogi

Guru, I believe the root Gu means light and Ru meaning darkness. So a Guru as a teacher in the gurushishyaparampara(Guru Disciple relationship)is merely a guide, to just plant that seed in us and show us the best way to overcome ignorance. The blind can't lead the blind.

And without.

Only new comers and the ignorant. Where i come from a Guru is necessary because it an oral tradition, and frankly, the tantras are too difficult for the layperson to decipher without proper instruction.

What else could or would they be? Absolute consciousness is the form of everything, nothing is separate from ultimate reality, one who thinks the guru(little "g") to be supernatural really just has romantic ideas of the yogic tradition and or buddhist tradition.

When we look for shortcomings in others its real our own shortcomings shining through. We forget they are human, Christ, Gotama Buddha, Gandhiji etc.. etc.. all had shortcomings

Indeed, well spoken.. Upaguru? I believe the term is, where everywhere we look and everything we come in contact with is a teacher or Guru.

LOL.. I love that and it takes me back. When i first met my Guru, he said to me "Daniel, if I ever tell you i'm perfect or I know it all or says this, run in the opposite direction as fast as you can"

Namaste and Guru Om
-D

PS..

Not to sound sadistic, and I don't condone the manner in which this paragraph goes about it, but suffering IS the GREATEST teacher of all.

Not to sure about black folk, but Gandhi surely hated America and its inhabitants.

lotus blossom

i saw a video of mother theresa in a world religion class i was in. she was talking to a landlord about a building that she was going to rent, and when asked about hot water needs, she said "no hot water, only cold". frigid suffering!

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greenchutney

this could be taken out of context or lost in translation. india is a hot country....so cold water might be more soothing. or its expensive to have hot water..maybe the charity didnt have money for it.

maharashi (mahesh yogi) was accused of being a CIA stooge,..baba ramdev is being targetted by the commies in india..sri sri has his own detracters....

its easy to cast aspersions these days. very cheap and wide media available to spread it around as well. and there are plenty of folks with their own agenda and motives to slander, bring down what not.

punchinello

A guy called John Safran - a comic/documentary maker from Australia - did a vox pop section every week on his series on religions called John Safran vs God. One week, he read out quotes from Pope JP 2 and the Dalai Lama and asked the person in the street to attribute them accurately to either or. They were basically all to do with archaic and fairly prejudicial attitudes towards sex, many of them humorously conservative. Funny thing was that all the liberalish quotations came from the Pope and the radically conservative ones from the Dalai Lama, but, in every single case, the interviewee chose the Pope. Funny that we automatically think Eastern religions are more in tune with contemporary Western values. I suppose Western religions are just a Western counterpoint to Western liberalism, though.

BTW, I highly recommend John Safran to any foreigners that can find his work. Perhaps on the web? I know his series, Speaking in tongues (by a long long way his weakest work), was available as a podcast. John Safran vs God is straight out brilliant, full of great insights, but also very, very funny.

Nick-H

I have no time for Sai Baba (What a marketing idea: you stand up and claim to a reincarnation of somebody...) or Osho. (as a couple of for-instances)

But read me their quotes, and I seldom disagree.

Hey, it isn't that difficult to write or say humane/wise/clever stuff....

nomad

i think its fashion worldwide to say bad things about great people. its sort of short-cut to getting popular. Politicians in india say bad things about gandhi when they want attention of news papers or TV.
same is true with mother Teresa. people in politics or religion need to have views of their own. and at times they have views/stands they themselves dont believe in.

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