Getting a handle on Karma

mira4bai4

As a reply to a PM I wrote the following to help to clarify Karma and thought that it may also be useful for other IMers.

It is good that there is interest in these matters as they are more important than most of us realise or give credence to.

This is a huge subject, though essentially simple it can be difficult to grasp without seeing the big picture and getting to the point of seeing the bigger picture can be once again simple and quick or convoluted and confusing depending on ones religious or spiritual background and the dogma contained within.

If you have a Christian background there is much in the Bible that relates to karma, however the powers that be preferred that such matters are not recognised and therefore most of the western world have missed out on a great deal of awareness and understanding that would have held many in good stead for their spiritual growth. As you may have been aware the church was not entirely supportive of an individuals spiritual growth in the period of 600 AD to the 1900's, so while the eastern philosophies talk much about the relationship between reincarnation and karma the west does not.

The two key factors are reincarnation and karma and if we look at this subject as being factual rather than a theory it may help bring things into line easier. So reincarnation is fact, karma is fact, without any scepticism as any doubts will only make this a theory and so there would be a huge difficulty in putting it into action. Karma is action. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The fruit or result of past thoughts, words and deeds. If we do something that is bad or harmful, injurious in anyway then this would be considered negative or bad, a bad action, bad karma. If we do something that is good or helpful, beneficial in anyway then this would be considered positive or good action, good karma. While it is better to do good it is still karma and chains or iron bind one as firmly as chains of gold. So creating good or bad karma has consequences.

The point of reincarnation is to give a life form the ability to experience. We can go through thousands of life forms through our birth cycles and within each form, being as a life of gas, mineral, organism plant, insect, fish, bird, animal and thankfully eventually human we experience every facet of those forms until such time as our every being has become saturated with experience and has no interest in that life form any longer and so moves to the next. Certain of these life forms have the capacity to have karma as karma is only related to the mind. This is a very important point, where there is mind, there is karma.

There are 3 different types of karma that we have to deal with in our human lives. Pralabdh, that portion of our karma which is allotted to this life and is responsible for our present existence. It is also called Fate or destiny. Kriyaman, the result or fruit of new actions performed during the present life. Sinchit, those karmas which still remain to be taken out of our own stored-up lot and are to be worked off or to bear fruit in future incarnations. So Pralabdh is the state that we are in now, Kriyaman is the potential mess that we are creating for the future and Sinchit is that which will come to land on us in lives to come. This is all of the good stuff and the bad. If we have been really bad, then we become really good, things become balanced and this is really excellent, but if we go over board and do heaps and heaps of good then the chains of gold will bind us.

How this effects our reincarnation is all about pay back, receiving and giving. So you did something excellent for someone, there is the possible need for that person to do something for you in a future life, I say possible because it may be the completion of a debt and so finished. If you do something harmful to someone or something, remembering every creature is part of the whole scheme, then that has to be paid for. Once again it may just be that the harmful thing was the finalisation of a debt owed to another and so it is completed, however we have no real way of knowing if were are creating or completing unless we have a good understanding of the process.

Thoughts, words and deeds, all these create karma. A thought is not as damaging to another but it is a judgement and none the less is wrong, so having a negative thought has an affect, a vibration that is part of our very being and does resonate within the creation. Think about the nature of confession for bad thoughts, it is relative. Words can cut deeper than a sword, you may not bleed but your heart and mind may be torn and once a word is spoken it cannot be unspoken and can remain buried deep within. The saying that 'I was cut to the quick,' is to hurt someone's feelings deeply, offend gravely. Deeds, our actions, we cut and we bleed, we bruise and we break, but we do heal outwardly. It is the scars, physical and emotional that we are dealing with.

So appreciating that everything that we do has an impact all about us and within us, now and in the future is a problem and seemingly an endless round that keeps us bound to birth and rebirth as we feel that there is no way out. We get the feeling of hopelessness and desperation. We think okay, commit suicide, end of cycle but the effects of this ACTION are far more damaging on us as we have to not only continue to learn from the original experience that brought us to that point of desperation but also the added burden of having to deal with the lack of appreciation of the gift of life and so have to work through all of the ramifications of that bad choice.

There are 2 ways of dealing with karma's so that we no longer create them as in not creating karma we end the cycle of birth and rebirth. One that the Buddhists often talk about is karmaless action, that is doing something that we have no interest in, do not have ownership of and have no thought of the result. This does not mean doing something and not caring what you are doing, it is far deeper than that. It is said that doing something in the name of the Lord has no karma, but unless one is a True Devotee and has Truly Surrendered to the Lord, then by just saying that you do something in the Lords name means squat, is shallow and bound to have ramifications. So the karmaless action is a thin line one walks on this journey.

The second way is through meditation, correct meditation in a very prescribed manner will allow us to burn off our karma's. While we may still go on creating karma's and as long as we breath we are killing organisms and so there is karma. Christ said that "Thou Shalt Not kill Any Living Thing". But the purpose is to minimise, minimise, minimise. With real Meditation we can burn off our store of Sinchit karma, improve on our Pralabdh karma and with the correct attitude minimise our Kriyaman karma.

Attitude is important, it is the most important aspect of our life. Maintaining the correct attitude is the only way that we can make it through this maize. When we have the correct attitude, the correct focus we can safe guard ourselves from actions that can be damaging to us. Being mindful of what we think, what we say and what we do. Buddhism is very strong on this matter and can provide good guidance but dealing with what is already ours is more of the issue.

Earlier I had mentioned about paying back and completing karma's as this can be confusing. So we have a situation of a past life when someone was a real nasty piece of work and enjoyed their work, they have to pay for this. In the intervening years before the particular karma's fall due they may have become very caring and gentle people, but the past is the past and so has to be paid. Because of their good deeds, the credits, the bad deeds are are balanced and so the resulting Pralabdh karma, that which is allotted to us in this life may not end up as bad for us as it could have been, we may live through it with only scares and the karma is paid. Now the person or persons that have to invoke or inflict this pay back to us may be the ones that we could have been real nasty to many lives ago, say in the time of the Spanish Inquisition. These people may be completing a task and depending on their attitude it may be the end of it, but if they thrived on dishing it to us then they have to deal with those consequences. If an administrator of justice is kind to us, does their job but has real feelings for the pain that we suffer, is in no way enjoying the task and wishes that they we not there at all, then essentially their involvement is minimal and so is any karma burden on them.

While we can disassociate our selves from a situation or duty, can we be detached, unless we are attached or associated to something higher, a higher power then we are not able to remove ourselves from the task. Doing it in the name of the Lord is only achievable when we are attached to the Lord and detached from the world. Real Meditation allows this relationship to develop and the results are therefore not ours.

Here is a quote that I used in a discourse that I prepared a few years back, it may be useful.

Maharaj Charan Singh gives us some insight. “Christ said: while you are on your ‘way’, go and apologise to the person, lest it will be too late. If the person who draws you back, to whom you are attached, is still living, you can clear that attachment. But if he has passed away, only through meditation can you clear it. You can forgive that which anybody owes to you. But, what you owe to others who have departed may not be forgiven you. For that, he says, ask for forgiveness of the Father, He will forgive you what you owe to others. First you have to forgive, then you become receptive to His forgiveness for what you owe to others. By meditation, all karmas are taken care of.”

Christ also said that “one should ask for forgiveness, because of the seed which we have sown, we will have to come to reap its fruit. So before the seed grows it is better to uproot that seed so that we may not have to taste its fruit. Suppose we have injured somebody's feelings or trespassed on his rights and we know that we are wrong, if we let that seed grow, what will be the result? We have to come back to this world to receive justice and that person will have to come back to take revenge. So Christ said we should ask for the person's forgiveness “while we are on the way,” while we are living and while he is living.

It is better to ask for his forgiveness now rather than taste the bitter fruit of that seed later, because that seed, that karma, will pull you back to this creation again. So, in that context, Christ said, not only seven times seven but seventy times seven, meaning an unlimited number of times. if still he doesn't forgive you, then don't bother about that, leave him to the Lord. You have cleared your conscience. But if you don't ask for forgiveness, that karma will be added to your Sinchit karma, your store of karma till cleared.”

“In order to get rid of karmas, do we ask forgiveness of those we have hurt or do we ask God to forgive us? I'll tell you. You ask for forgiveness as many times as you possibly can. Ask the people we have harmed? People we have harmed, I ask the people I have harmed? Naturally! Whom you can forgive, you must forgive. If they ask you far forgiveness, you at once forgive. And you should ask for the forgiveness of those whom you have harmed. And if they don't forgive you, what you have done to them, then the Lord will forgive you.”

Hopefully this has been of help, as I said it is a big subject and I have tried to keep it simple and not too convoluted. There is so much to bring together and it is difficult to leave things out. Depending on your desires and the path that you wish to tread, once again you may gain a clear and simple journey or a convoluted one that is interesting but full of unnecessary distractions.

Please ask for any further clarifications, I only parrot much of what I have been taught, write my slant on what I have read, or describe what I understand, so greater information is readily available from texts that I can direct you to. The story of the maize of Chaurasi in the link Recommend a Guru was extremely important and impacts on all of us. Kal is the Lord of this Realm, the maize is our endless cycle of births and rebirths and the opening in the maize to take us Home is only for the worthy and the way out is through Real Meditation, no karma's, no maize.

Layman

My understanding of karma is that the good deeds and bad deeds of your life will impact the quality of your next life. Similarly, your actions in your past life affect what happens to you in your current life.

This apparently explains why bad things happen to good people (bad karma from past lives) and vice-versa.

But I have my doubts on whether someone is really tabulating all the good and bad deeds that you are committing in your life. Also, is there an absolute definition of good/bad? What about excruciating circumstances?

mira4bai4

[quote]Layman
But I have my doubts on whether someone is really tabulating all the good and bad deeds that you are committing in your life. Also, is there an absolute definition of good/bad? What about excruciating circumstances?QUOTE]

Why would one think that there is no tabulation of good and bad deeds ~ for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, it is a law of the cosmos just like the earth spinning round the sun.

Why is there a need for absolutes, the grey area holds many variables depending on the attitude at the time of the action - the attitude at the time of the action.

Excruciating circumstances, as in a house was on fire and you raced in to save the lives of the occupants but could not save them all, or your fear was so great that you could not attempt to go inside the fire. The first is of good merit and what can be done is done, the second is not for us to know as the people trapped may well have been meant to be so and that is how they were meant to endure suffering before dying. Your suffering and torment from seeing this and feeling the fear is the lesson or karma for you, is it good or bad for you, probably neither, just a lesson to be considered.

AvidTrekker

Karma and Re-Birth

Q: What is karma?
A: The term has three meanings at the three levels of existence. Gross, subtle, Causal.

Q: I guess ‘gross’ relates to ‘body’ and ‘subtle’ relates to mind. What is this ‘causal’ Karma??
A: Creation. The birth of this Universe. The first karma for those in the current cycle of Creation. First the “thought”. This is called yatna. Followed by mahat the first movement or vibration.

This led to the formation of the golden egg called hiraNyagarbha (lit. meaning golden womb). The entire Universe was packed into this super dense ovoid of extra-ordinary high energy which can be called the proto-Universe. Some other names for it are viraaT (puruSha suukta) and aadi-shakti (original energy)(tantric... aadi shakti is worshipped as a female concept... but it refers to this ball of energy from which we all came). This hiraNyagarbha breathes just as we breathe, although there is no air for it... it is just a breathing movement. The vedas give another important name for this hiraNyagarbha called praaNa which even scholars have incorrectly translated as "breath".

Then came Creation as we have come to understand Creation. This started with a ‘big bang’.

Post big-bang, the name prajaapati or proto-Creator has been given to this exploding Universe.

The big bang sound was so powerful that it resonates even now after trillions of years. You can hear it from within your body when you are in total silence or when you close both your ears and listen carefully. It is called anaahata naada or the unstruck sound. As long as this sound resonates, the current Universe “remains”. At the end of this kalpa, the Universe will subsume itself back into the underlying sub-stratum called brmhan or para-brmhan. Merge with the Ultimate Absolute Principle. At this, the resonating sound will cease.
( Expln: The lifespan-time of the Universe is one kalpa. The word “kalpa” also means “thought”. Implying therefore that this Universe is but a mere “thought” of the supreme being. In other words, a “thought” of God )

Q: This "Ultimate Absolute Principle"... is this not the “formless” state of God?
A: This is the actual essence or the state of being. It simply “IS”. All subtle energy, radiating energy and matter progressively "arise" from this and eventually "melt" into this.

Q: How does this "arising" and "melting back" come about?
A: First elemental energy manifested itself as an ellipsoid of super dense radiation which we call hiraNyagarbha or the golden egg. Also called aadi-shakti. This exploded. This gave rise to the grossness called “space” or aakaasha, which crystallized from this essence of energy. What you perceive as "empty" is not really "empty" space. The matrix of "space" consists of extremely subtle, small bundles of energy spread out like a fisherman’s net in three dimensions. These bundles of energy collided with the life-principle praaNa or living awareness. This collision of aakaasha with praaNa led to forms of further grossness; now recognizable as Cosmic streams or rivers of energy. These gross formations further led to the elemental existence of gaseous, plasma-heat, liquid, solid. In that order.

Try to imagine yourself so small that a single atom appears like a galaxy. The nucleus appears like a central “sun” and the electrons appear like small planets whirling around it. The nearest neighbouring atom is far far away. Shapes as you know them today are non-existent. This appears only because you are not big enough to see them as “shapes”. You can then visualize the elemental streams of energy. Light and matter are inter-convertible in this Universe of streams of energy.

Q: Where did this praaNa come from?
A: Awareness is always there, everywhere. Neither does it come from somewhere, nor does it go anywhere. Total awareness and total bliss are combined in the essence of eternal being, the Ultimate Absolute.

Q: But the vedas state that the Universe began with OM.
A: Yes. We call it that. We cannot mimic the actual sound of that massive explosion. So we mimic it at our smaller level and speak it aloud as OM. God began with OM, so we begin everything with the utterance of OM.

Q: What is “subtle” karma?
A: You think a thought. This is subtle karma.

Q: What is “gross” karma?
A: You put your thought into action. This is gross karma.

Q: So we move from subtlest to subtle to gross.
A: ….and vice versa. The eternal cycles of creation and dissolution go on…

Q: Please explain “gross” karma in day to day terms.
A: The word means ‘to do’, ‘doing’, ‘done’, ‘work’, etc. “To do” in all its nuances.

Q: Are there many types of gross karma?
A: Yes. Three: good, bad, mixed. Some add “the self-realized sage’s karma” as the fourth. This fourth is neither good nor bad.

Q: What are good karmas?
A: All acts done with Love of God and fear of sin. daiva priiti papa bhiiti. All acts rooted in Truth, Love, Non-violence and Right-conduct, which result in Peace. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is how the Bible states this.

Q: What are bad karmas?
A: All acts done without fear of sin, ignoring one’s own innate goodness. All acts done without compassion and discrimination. All acts that reveal the latent bestiality. All acts done under influence of the six inner enemies in all of us. (desire, anger, greed, attachment, arrogance, jealousy)

Q: What are the mixed karmas?
A: As the word indicates, they are both good and bad. On the face of it they are prompted by compassion or altruism; while they belie hidden selfishness and ulterior motives. Some people start charitable institutions on a grandly trumpeted scale. Later they do not pay the salaries regularly and/or adequately. Their aim is to get name and fame. They distribute worn out clothes to the needy which will not last a month. Whatever they do, the purpose is to garner publicity.

Q: Where is the “good” in this? I can perceive only the “bad”.
A: An ordinary observer may see an eminent person do charity and wish to emulate this action on a smaller scale. One may do this emulation with a pure heart. Some “good” has eventually occurred. Again, compare the “publicity seeker” with the total miser who will not “give” even if he has to choose between giving and death. Here, the “publicity seeker” seems better off in comparison. It is better to “give with publicity” than to “never give”.

Q: What is the “self-realized” sage’s karma?
A: The jnaanii is the perfected human. The one who has realized himself as the ONE. The karma of the jnaanii is done without “body feeling” i.e. ego. The jnaanii does not feel that “I am doing this.” Rather, the words would be: “the body is performing”. The jnaanii does not consider his body as his own. The jnaanii feels that ALL the bodies are “his” bodies in actual experience. The jnaanii thus feels the joys and sorrows of the all the jeevas in actual experience, yet being above all of them. When you see grass flying with the wind, do you feel that you have made it happen? So when the jnaanii “performs”, it is merely one amongst the many “grasses” flying with the wind.

Q: Is this type called “nishkaama karma” in the bhagavad geetaa?
A: Yes and No. Any karma done without an eye on its eventual result qualifies as nishkaama karma or desireless karma. Yes, because jnaaniis do it all the time. NO because even ordinary people do it some of the time.

Q: Practically I have this constant feeling that “I am this body”. In effect which implies that ordinary mortals like me cannot ever do nishkaama karma…
A: Why this poverty of thought? Did I not just say that ordinary persons can do it some of the time? You certainly can! Without doubt. Yes, it is quite difficult to mentally detach yourself from the potential results which are about to accrue. We live in a performance driven society. There is an easier way out. Be passionately attached to the result so that you give your very best to the karma. Now dedicate the results of your “doing” to the Lord. This will ensure that you do your very best…. even in mundane karma like washing clothes… imagine that you are washing the Lord’s clothes… even though they are your clothes. You will do it lovingly and excellently. Dedicate the result to the Lord. This will relieve you from its karmic reaction. This will enable you to do nishkaama karma more often than not. This will also relieve you of the happy/sad cycle (happy that the result came out better than expected or sad that the result was a mess). Your conscience will always tell you that you did your best… the outcome is never your concern.

Q: Gurujee, once I heard you speak about jnaana karmas…
A: This comes under the category of “good” karmas. Difference is, even “good” karmas have a binding effect, jnaana karmas do not.

This term is used for all actions done to learn from scripture or teacher or elder the means and ways to get out of this birth-death-birth cycle. All acts done to know “how may I escape from the mental notion that I am this body” All actions done to re-inforce the learning that “this created world is transient and ephemeral”. All acts done to re-inforce the faith in basic moral and human values. Truth, Love, Peace, Non-violence and Right-conduct. All acts that propel towards the mergence of the individual with the Eternal.

Q: This means we are doing jnaana karma ? Right now??
A: You are doing jnaana karma. Svaami is doing anugraha karma. Your mother is lovingly feeding you the tasty dishes that your heart yearns to eat.

Q: The “good karmas” are binding whereas jnaana karmas are not. But jnaana karmas come under the heading of “good karmas”… yet they do not bind??
A: Good karmas yield good results. Who is going to enjoy them? The do-er! A typical example is the birth of a “crown prince” to a wealthy and powerful king. The prince has obviously taken birth to “enjoy” the riches of his “good karmas” in some previous birth. In the “prince” birth, he may not have to strive for anything at all. Everything will be offered to him un-asked.

As far as jnaana karmas go, there is only one way they could bind. Its a very real danger in today’s age of kali. You may get a swollen head. Your inflated ego may propel you to show-off. You begin to revel in the mere vocabulary of spiritual topics which ordinary people find difficult to comprehend. You want to gloat with the praise offered at your erudition. You could start giving lectures after listening to these answers. (wrongly implying that they are your own experiences)

This is a very real danger that spiritual aspirants must be wary of. Even certain so-called gurus and saints have quietly succumbed to this temptation. Once someone becomes the leader of a movement which attracts many followers and the consequent wealth and power… he may start pretending that he is self realized, when in actual fact he is not. This karma is so subtle in its binding effect that the karma do-er will undergo many births with arrogance… like a blind man who does not know that he is blind. His ego becomes very deep rooted instead of being diluted. Ego of spiritual scholarship and/or spiritual siddhis (special powers) is the worse. It defies uprooting over many births.

Q: Gurujee, I have always said that I am no one. I have not had any spiritual experience of samaadhii and have never claimed anything to the contrary. I merely say that these are words that I have heard from my master.
A: Don’t claim it as a virtue! You are a lazy fellow who does not want to work hard to attain self-perfection. You do have some experience in spiritual saadhanaa. Your actual experience may be stated as your own. If stated without ego to a deserving person, it will be elevating for the both of you!



TO BE CONTINUED......... ................... TO BE CONTINUED ............

__________________
The Universe is an ellipsoid?... or a Spheroid?? If the sphere smiles... it becomes an ellipse. This IS Creation.

ddevadatta

Execellent piece mira. Helped me a lot. You did ask for some clarifications of which I have two.

1. If Karma has something (even partially) to do with the mind, why is their no memory of karma and it's implications in subequent life forms. As a human being in this existence I have no real memory of any past life.

2. Is there a real need to try and support karma/reincarnation with the words of another point of view of life; namely the quotes from a person like Jesus. As I review the quotes they do not sum of the totality of who he was and what he taught. It gives the impression that one is "artifically" trying to fit in rather than taking each point of view about life and representing them for what they teach and thereby allowing them to stand independent for anyone to examine each on their own terms. Perhaps just an observation I have but am always curious when we do that.

The reason I say this is that fundamentally karma/reincarnation has a cyclical view of life, whereas something like the likes of Christ has more a linear view of life, which at the core are very very different. One can of course find similarities. Example both the study of geography and history might have numerous similarities but fundamentally they are two very different subjects of knowledge.

Anyways I was wondering these thoughts in response to what is a fine piece of writing to provided us.

__________________
Ayurvedic cure for an Indian headache

mira4bai4

It is much like AvidTrekker has said, someone asks a question and our fingers hit the key board, it is all in His hands as to the result.

Karma has all to do with the mind, where the mind is so is karma, when the mind had gone back to reside in its home then there is no more karma; no mind no karma. As to why we do not remember in subsequent life forms, it is from what I understand on a need to know basis and the capacity of the individual to understand. So as the individual progresses along a spiritual path and becomes more enlightened so they are more aware of their past lives. Think of it like while you are in the mud hole all is mud and once you have the capacity to climb out and clean yourself up a bit you see things in a greater perspective and can have a greater understanding of the process of falling in the mud hole because you can see the trail that you followed to make you slip in.

As a westerner and writing to a westerner it seemed appropriate to use a quote that may fit into the understanding of that persons background, some times people remember things from a sermon or a study or whatever, just a point of reference that may be familiar and therefore enable the person to grasp or absorb the other non western context of the discussion. Just a reference point, no more. It is very difficult to sum up someone like Jesus, I have my perspective and I am happy that he finished his life in India quietly. The teachings of such people are pure Sant Mat no more no less, it is all about the purity of Love and Surrender to that Love. In pure Love there is nothing other than God, in pure Love, ones actions are all Gods actions, in pure Love there is no Karma.

How can there be a difference between karma/reincarnation for all of creation and the likes of Christ, there is no difference, there was a physical form a body which is a requirement within this creation, there was a mind which is the fundamental attribute in the causal plane and there was the soul which was bound to the mind and body just like impurities in the air are bound to water vapour when it falls to the earth and the dirt when the water droplet falls to it. When the water once again evaporates, it is separated from the soil and as it rises higher in to the sky other impurities are removed, this is the same for us all, whether we are Christ's or anyone else. AvidTrekker has covered much of this in his post.

As we become more spiritually inclined it is a sign that our karmas are reduced, we become lighter, an enlightened being may have the karma to come back to this creation to work with humanity. It is fairly historical that many Saint have returned to continue their work to help the souls of man and in so doing draw to them those souls that they have been working with for many incarnations. A shepherd gathers his flock to him.

AvidTrekker

You have a real memory of all the significant events of your past lives. Most certainly. All of us. "significant" means what you happen to remember. Even in this current life. For example, do you remember what you ate for lunch on 23rd January 1995?

You don't have the Password to access that memory area [it is hard wired in our brains ar birth]

And most of us do not know that there is a "Password" [to be discovered] because we are not in the Computer field! How would a Bastar tribal ask for a Password to his Govt office Computer records?

Just an example... I am as much ignorant as any one here. No better no worse.

Jesus taught the karma principle freely to everyone! Discover where he was during his "missing" 16 years and you will get your own answer. You are getting heavily censored versions of his teachings. If you have noticed Jesus ended his life in India. [see mira's last post] His tomb is called takht-e-taus in Srinagar. Volga_Volga has posted a pic of Christ's tomb on IndiaMike.

On the other hand you may choose to reject this presumption. You are destined to make your discoveries in your own way.

zenkris

interesting posts so far.

i believe that a question of good or bad karmas is irrelevant. yes, there is more suffering for someone who causes more pain to others, but life is essentially suffering anyway, so a little more or less doesn't matter that much, at least to me.

what i'm trying to say is that some people who attained liberation from the law of cause and effect were not "perfect" people morally and some people who are good life after life are still in bondage even if it's a slightly less painful form of bondage.
so i am doubtfull if good deeds are really necessary to understand the emptiness of everything (if you're a buddhist), or the allpervasiveness of Brahman (if a hindu), etc.
Buddhists mostly say yes and many hindu teachers too, but i'm still not convinced.

anyway, a few thoughts from one of the greats, j. krishnamurti:

"Cause and effect are inseparable, in the cause is the effect. To be aware of the cause-effect of a problem needs certain swift pliability of mind-heart for the cause-effect is constantly being modified, undergoing continual change. What was once cause-effect may have become modified now and to be aware of this modification or change is surely necessary for true understanding.

To follow the ever changing cause-effect is strenuous for the mind clings and takes shelter in what was the cause-effect; it holds to conclusions and so conditions itself the past. There must be an awareness of this cause-effect conditioning; it is not static but the mind is when it holds fast to a cause-effect that is immediately past.

...Karma is the process of time, the past moving through the present to the future; this chain is the way of thought. Thought is the result of time, and there can be that immeasurable timeless, only when the process of thought has ceased.

...Karma is not an ever-enduring chain; its a chain that can be broken at any time. What was done yesterday can be undone today; there's no permanent continuance of anything. Continuance can and must be dissipated through the understanding of the process."

crvlvr

A question for the experts.. If you are paid back for your current actions, what decides if you are paid back in this life as opposed to subsequent lifetimes?

zenkris

it depends who your investor is

crvlvr

Question for mira4bai4,

Based on your explanation, can you explain how the rules of Karma apply to the life of Jesus Christ and Buddha?

Buddha was born a pince and led a life of luxury and out of his own free will chose to renounce it and lead a life of an ascetic. The laws of KArma would imply that he had positive Sinchit.

Jesus, on the other hand led a life of suffering and was crucified. Does this mean he had negative Sinchit?

zenkris

i'm not mira4bai4 obviously and i hope he will reply as well and AT too.

obviously jc had some bad karmas from previous lives, if we can believe what is said abt him. so much was created as a legend and so much has been left out due to selfish roman reasons that we can only guess abt him or any other ancient personality like gautama siddhartha (btw, buddha is a state of mind not any person).

anyway, whatever his karma was, i hope he found his enlightenment in one of his next lives. he was a true anarchist, so you gotta love him

mira4bai4

Gads, so many questions and I am only having my first coffee for the day.

A discussion such as this has to be taken at a certain level, this kind of thing is kind of out there like exploring the solar system and as they have found frost on Mars so we need to think in those kinds of levels and not our every day though patterns. This being said and a pretty tricky subject to walk through with the help of AvidTrekker it may all make sense.

The question of good and bad karma is most definitely relevant, there is always three aspects to everything, the positive, the negative and the neutral; love, hate and indifference. Good karma, bad karma and karmaless. This life is not about suffering, there is suffering but this life is about the process of living, suffering comes as a result of a non positive process.

No one can attain liberation from cause and affect until they are perfect.
A really great book to read is God Speaks by Meher Baba, it has been expressed extremely well and I am using some of his references to explain this. We hear about the Causal Plane, this is made up of the Gross Sphere, the physical body, the Subtle Sphere, the subtle body and the Mental Sphere being the mental body; essentially the soul is referred to the Subtle body on its entry into the Causal Plane it obtains a Mental body and also the Physical body, this is the requirement for all things to exist in this Causal Plane that we know and suffer in. In this Causal Plane all activity comes under the scope of cause and effect and any being that has spent time here as all beings have to are burdened with karma generated within this Causal Plane. There are a number of other Planes, normally 7 are mentioned but there are 9 as I understand it and within each of these Planes there are 3 Spheres as we find in our present Causal plane. Note that the Chakras within the human body are also Planes but are considered the 7 lower Planes. All Planes including the 7th highest are realms where Illusion exists, it is only when the soul goes beyond the 7th Plane that it experiences Reality as it then becomes unconscious of Illusion, when this happens the final threads of karma disappear as the final threads of the Mind or Mental World disappear.

The Gross World which is the lower end of the Causal plane is where we are now, we die and are reborn back into the Gross World for another round of Pin Ball; as a soul becomes enlightened it moves to a higher level within the Causal Plane but may still return back to the Gross World to perform certain activities. The differences is that common man whizzes round like in a whirl pool and Spiritual Man rises up and may not return as quick as the common man does. Every Being that enters the Gross World has defects, is not perfect, the human body cannot be perfect and the mind cannot be perfect, the soul can be but we do not know the soul of a Being in this Gross World. So Christ, Buddha and every other Saint while in this Gross World were not perfect and any Being that needs to come into this Gross World is not perfect. Perfect Beings cannot enter this Gross World as it would be like the illumination of 10,000 suns around them, it is not possible for man to experience this and so no perfect Being ever comes here.

To put some of this into perspective, there are 3 Planes that are connected to the Causal Plane, that is the Subtle world, these Planes are sometimes referred to as Heavens and are the areas that common man would rise to at death before returning to another birth and depending on their karmic burden depends how high the soul may rise in these Planes or Heavens. Highly Enlightened Beings, such as Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Kabir, Nanak and many other Sant Sat Gurus rise beyond the 4th Plane which is the threshold between the Subtle World and the Mental world. At the 6th Plane the Being is fully conscious of Mind and Master of the minds of all.

These higher Planes are where the higher spiritual beings reside until all of their karmas with all other beings are completed and then they move up into the 7th Plane where they are are fully Conscious of Self, where they Consciously experience Infinite Power, Knowledge and Bliss. Beyond this Plane the Soul has merged with God and has returned Home.

If we think of it like a computer allocating power and breaking to a vehicle in adverse road conditions, we are given what we can cope with at the time. Circumstance it could be called or a really big chess game where all of the pieces have to come together in order to go through a certain play. Everything depends on the past load of karmas and how heavy they are, some we may pay back with illness and fevers, some in nightmares and some in general life, but if an individual undertakes deep meditation then this also clears karmas and so speeds up the process of either going through them or dissolving them. Old karmas Sinchit are often those that are really weird and heavy, like being thrown in prison or caught up in a situation that was completely alien to you, a train crash or airline crash for example.

[QUOTEcrvlvr Buddha was born a pince and led a life of luxury and out of his own free will chose to renounce it and lead a life of an ascetic. The laws of KArma would imply that he had positive Sinchit.

Jesus, on the other hand led a life of suffering and was crucified. Does this mean he had negative Sinchit?[/quote]

In one life you may be a pauper, a beggar or the like and within that context you are a very good person that incurs high merit for your deeds as in compassion and love for others. As a reward you are born into a life of luxury and status, a Prince, this does imply that there were positive Sinchit karmas at work, but if that person used their position for negative power then the flow on effects of pain and suffering in future lives will be more intense. While Jesus had a period of suffering and was crucified, it was not all of his life and it does need to be considered that pain and suffering bring us closer to God, it is a way of cleansing, it is karma to go through this and Buddha did not have it all good either but within a human body is the most effective and quickest way of working through karma, so Christs experience was not good or bad, just karma. Remember that chains of iron bind as tight as chains of gold, so while we may build up a store of bad karma or good karma they are all in the same container and just labelled Tulsi's Karma due of 17/06/2005. Even highly evolved souls return to this plane in order to complete allotted karmas and when they return they gather the followers, disciples of previous births with them to assist those devout souls through there karmas.

ddevadatta

Any history of a person, nation, people is a selection from a vast array of information. This is the nature of history and the writing of history. Take the writing of any war and only certain aspects are documented. But for the most part what is documented is open to public examination. One cannot make claims to those aspects of silence. One never really knows that. One would need to admit that is in the realm of speculation.

What we can have is a worthwhile discussion of what is recorded and left behind for us. Whether one believes in a certain record is of course personal but such records have stood the test of time. As for me I rather see Jesus and Buddha as genuine historical figures who have left us enough for one mortal soul to digest in one life time, let alone speculate what else they might have said or done. At least if one takes to understanding the full implications of what was left behind and study the fullness of their thought and practice.
But then that's just me!

mira4bai4

What you are saying is true, I would also offer that everything that we say is speculation as it is not until we are at a certain level that we can have the full knowledge and thus know for sure. We live in an Illusion, we live an Illusion, what we speak is seldom the truth, moreover what we hear is seldom the truth. Like all that has been written in history is only a perspective, like all that has been written in this thread and will follow is just a perspective; until we have completed the course of karma we will not know for sure as we may still be in the Illusion.

Having so many versions of historical events and so many versions of philosophical mystical and spiritual teachings helps in putting together something that may prove useful in our journey. they are all sign posts along the way to guide those that look for such signs to find the next one.