[pantelis]

Now, do not think, just because all of these different systems call their various meditation practices by the same name, that these are in fact the same practices.They are not.The methods of shamatha and vipashyana, and therefore the results of shamatha and vipashyana in Hindu meditation systems, Theravadan meditation systems, and the mahamudra meditation system, are ALL different.For example, the shamatha or tranquility techniques taught in mahamudra-grasping the ungrasped mind, stabilizing it once it has been grasped, and bringing progress upon stabilization-are unique to mahamudra.And also the vipashyana or insight practices of looking at the mind within stillness, looking at the mind within occurence and looking at the mind within appearances are also unique to mahamudra.They are different from the similarly named techniques found in Hindu systems, Theravadan systems, or in other Buddhist traditions.Of course the nature with which we are concerned is the same, but HOW we look at it is very differenr.
In mahamudra we are concerned with the intense and precise scrutiny of the mind.The purpose and result of mahamudra meditation is that through such scrutiny we come to recognize the mind`s nature , which is dharmata, the nature of all things, and thereby to achieve all 2wisdom and all qualities.The purpose of mahamudra tranquility meditation is to bring about the immediate pacification of the kleshas and that of mahamudra insight meditation is to bring about the ultimate eradication of the kleshas , through which the wisdom of the Buddha is realized.

by KHENCHEN THRANGU RINPOCHE
from The Ninth Karmapa`s
Ocean of Definitive Meaning

[pantelis]

all the persons i`ve met till now in my life that do Vipashyana meditation they seem that they are afraid of being called religious and they just find themselves being stuck on this level.In fact, since i was a baby i almost called myself an atheist and never wanted to be a religious person But when i started to study a bit more and hear teachings , meet teachers and read more and more using reasoning i realize that vipashyana is just the first step, there are more to come afterwards.
That is bothering me , this kind of "taboo" of being called "religious" without trying to look beyond this.

[Silmaril]

Thanks yogagal and pantelis for answering my points.

I think I can understand where you're coming from pantelis, but ironically your reservations about Vipassana are exactly what draw me, as I definitely wouldn't call myself religious. Thus, something which offers insight, and a way of helping me in my "spiritual" life (another word I'm uncomfortable with), that doesn't directly/necessarily mean religion, is a good thing. I guess it's another case of different paths for different people . . .

[sirensongs]

I may be wrong, but wasn't Dorje Shugden the Oracle that warned HHDL to, LEAVE NOW! when he consulted it on whether he should leave Lhasa or face the Chinese??

Nope. You are referring to the primary State Oracle of Tibet, Dorje Drakden ("thunderbolt dragon"). You can see a real, live photo of the current Oracle in trance on my blogsite (url below). (blatant self-promotion over!). This oracle is consulted by HHDL and others in important matters of state.

No, Dorje Shugden is a similar "guardian spirit" but not the oracle. The material I've read likens "worshipping" him to "elevating the bodyguard to greater importance than that of the king," and so on.

Yes, the program you saw is the cult/sect I'm referring to. No, the NK/D Shugden/GKGyaltso-ites do not follow HHDL at all.

However, the fact that you are not meant to say the "God's" name because he is so terrible is disturbing (in my opinion).

I understand that concern, and I think it reflects traditional Tibetan beliefs about the power of names and invocation. I don't think it's meant as censorship in the literal sense of the word. For that reason, if someone asks about them I will explain what I know, but I don't go around making idle conversation about them, gossiping about them and so on.

The book I found from the Tibetan Govt. did a good job (IMHO) presenting the sect's own side of things as well as the official govt. side. Yes, of course it is as much political as religious - that's the nature of things in a semi-theocratic society like the Tibetan one.

[Silmaril]

Regarding the name thing: I wasn't so much concerned about censoreship as about power. Names do have power in a way, and if you're afraid to say the name as something . . . I know this is kinda cheesy, but Dumbledore in Harry Potter is right when he says that fear of the name increases fear of the thing itself. A name too terrible to be spoken makes the thing it refers to seem terribly powerful, and Gods and devils like that . . . well, I wouldn't want to be worshipping them! And as Buddhism (as far as I understand it) isn't meant to really worship Gods anyway, giving that much status to a thing/creature/person sounds a bit dodgy, surely? (I don't know enough about Buddhism to be sure that they'd disaprove of this, but that's my impression . . . )

[dzibead]

Originally Posted by kullukid

I may be wrong, but wasn't Dorje Shugden the Oracle that warned HHDL to, LEAVE NOW! when he consulted it on whether he should leave Lhasa or face the Chinese??

Originally Posted by sirensongs

Nope. You are referring to the primary State Oracle of Tibet, Dorje Drakden ("thunderbolt dragon"). You can see a real, live photo of the current Oracle in trance on my blogsite (url below). (blatant self-promotion over!). This oracle is consulted by HHDL and others in important matters of state.

No, Dorje Shugden is a similar "guardian spirit" but not the oracle.

You're correct that Shugden is a "guardian spirit" not an oracle, but one of the oracles of Shugden is often credited with giving the advice, along with detailed instructions, that the Dalai Lama should flee into exile. That's what kullukid is referring to. As you say, the State Oracle is the Nechung Oracle, through whom Dorje Drakden, a different guardian spirit, manifests himself, but that oracle did not give the advice to flee.

The Shugden business is an extremely controversial issue within Tibetan Buddhism, and if the OP wants to be considered part of "mainstream" Tibetan Buddhism, the Shugden business is best avoided. That said, I know some elderly Tibetans in exile, not the New Khadampa bunch, who privately maintain Shugden practices and yet are completely devoted to the Dalai Lama - who, I believe, has said that private Shugden devotions are acceptable. So go figure.

This is all too weird for me. One of the many reasons I'm not a Tibetan Buddhist. Or any kind of Buddhist. Or any kind of religious practitioner at all, for that matter.

[pantelis]

regarding this guardian spirit :

http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/shugden-origins.html


and i almost blindly follow His Holiness The Dalai Lama`s advice on not following its propitiation and involvement.But he important is:

"For the sake of knowledge Kalacakra imparts instruction on the earth, [instruction] that is similar to the one which has just been explained, for people having dull, sharp, and other mental dispositions due to the power of the habitual propensities of their karma. Because the mind, like a crystal, becomes colored by the colors of the objects in proximity, a yogi should not refute any Dharma belonging to his own or to another lineage."

"The generation-stage practices of corresponding enlightened phenomena to ordinary phenomena with a view to transformation indicates a system in which mind developed to its full potential takes precedence over objectively viewed "real" phenomena. This important pillar of Vajrayana thought may explain its emphasis on phenomena being mind-created, particularly its assertion that all things in samsara and nirvana are generally created by the mind, or by the everpresent subtle mind and subtle wind."

[Silmaril]

dzibead - thanks for the warning; I am not currently looking to become part of any Buddhist school, but will keep that in mind. Frankly though, I think there is too much "magic" in the Tibetan tradition for me.

[dzibead]

Originally Posted by Silmaril

I think there is too much "magic" in the Tibetan tradition for me.

I hear you, Silmaril. The Tibetan branch of Buddhism is hugely, hugely influenced by the pre-Buddhist religious, ritualistic, and cultural traditions of Tibet that appear to have absolutely nothing to do with the more philosophical aspects of Buddhism.

[sirensongs]

From Dzibead: As you say, the State Oracle is the Nechung Oracle, through whom Dorje Drakden, a different guardian spirit, manifests himself, but that oracle did not give the advice to flee.

Thanks for the correction.
It might have been the Ghadong oracle, the 2nd state oracle of Tibet; in fact it seems right now that I think of it. But he doesn't manifest DShugden, either. I can't find the name of the god manifested by Ghadong at the moment.

The Tibetan branch of Buddhism is hugely, hugely influenced by the pre-Buddhist religious, ritualistic, and cultural traditions of Tibet

Yes, it accomodates lots of old Tibetan pre-Buddhistic shamanism, as well as Tantric practices from India.

[machadinha]

Originally Posted by dzibead

the pre-Buddhist religious, ritualistic, and cultural traditions of Tibet

Called Bön right?

[dzibead]

Originally Posted by machadinha

Called Bön right?

Right! A fascinating religion that looks to the uninitiated outsider (of which I am one) very much like Tibetan Buddhism. But they aren't Buddhists because, for one thing, their "big paneer" is a different figure, called Tönpa Shenrab. They have other figures/deities that parallel Buddhisht figures like Tara, etc. but they're not the same - it's not just that the names are different; they're different figures. And their ritual practices are different, e.g., they do their koras (circumabulations) counter-clockwise, not clockwise like Buddhists, and the arms on their swastika symbols turn the opposite of Buddhist swastikas. But while all this is different, it looks superficially the same - same red-robed monks, same kind of art and iconongraphy, very similar rituals... but not the same. Confusing to me!

Some people think, erroneously, that the Dalai Lama has recognized Bön, or Bönpo as it's also referred to, as a fifth school of Tibetan Buddhism (along with the Gelugpa, Sakyapa, Nygmapa, and Kagyupa schools, but that's not accurate. What he's actually said is that it's the 5th great dharma tradition -- meaning teaching tradition -- in Tibet.

I think Bön also includes a lot of pre-Bön, shamanistic stuff and worship of local deities (mountain gods, that sort of thing) that's very like some of the religious practices that survive in Mongolia.

In the murder mysteries by Eliot Pattison that are set in Tibet, the Tibetan characters actually seem more like Bönpo's to me than Buddhists (or at least like very primative Nyingmapas!) because while the characters are portrayed as completely absorbed in Tibetan spiritual tradition, they're always going on about local deities and stuff like that - nary a reference to the Dalal Lama or any other recognizable Tibetan Buddhist figure.

Here are a couple more articles/websites on Bön:

http://www.tibet.com/Buddhism/bon.html
http://www.bonfoundation.org/letter.html
http://bonpo.net/index.html

[Nick-H]

In the murder mysteries by Eliot Pattison that are set in Tibet

I do wish he was as good at structuring a story as he is at telling about the culture he loves so much --- but still a wonderful read, and an eye-opener to those of us who know little about Tibet.

[Frog]

The real Buddha emptied his mind of all past conditioning & traditions and found out for himself

Regardless of what system you follow, that very system must also go into the fire. In order to find out all opinions & conclusions of what system is 'best' must go. This IS the past, this is tradition, all such systems are formed by other people, to find if there is truth you can only come upon it when the views & ways of other people are totally left behind. That is freedom.

So many people seem to adopt systems & religions yet become attached to them Even if the system/religion warns of the dangers of attachment, that then becomes the next attachment! I don't think the Buddha wanted anyone to adopt a certain viewpoint/conclusion/belief (even of him) and stick to that. He taught freedom and in that there is not any views at all. When all opinions and beliefs end, is there any difference between you or I?

[dzibead]

Originally Posted by Nick-H

I do wish he was as good at structuring a story as he is at telling about the culture he loves so much --- but still a wonderful read, and an eye-opener to those of us who know little about Tibet.

Yes, I like his books but they can be pretty heavy going, partly because the way he writes is so cryptic sometimes ... I guess we're OT, talking about Pattison.