[Silmaril]

I am a bit confused and was hoping some of you might be able to clarify:

I followed the link to the E-Sangha forum provided in a sticky at the top of this section. It looks very useful, and as I'm currently trying to learn about Buddhism, I thought I'd join up. I was reading the forum term and rules, and it included the following:

You agree not to post any links to pornography websites, gambling websites, New Kadampa Tradition websites, Dark Zen websites and True Buddha School websites

Obviously, the first two aren't a problem! My question is: what are the last three? Dark zen sounds bad, but what is the problem with the other two (I googled them briefly, and nothing evil lept off the page - but I didn't look hard and am clueless about Buddhism so probably missed something)

I know this is very cheeky to post here, but as it's a query about the registration rules of E-Sangha I can't really post it there as I haven't joined. I know I could join and ask, but what would you think of a member whose first post was asking about what sounds like a sensitive topic??? Plus, although it's not a big deal, I'd like to understand the registration rules before agreeing to them!

Thanks for any info

[lightndarkness]

I would probably just join and then ask anyway in my postings there. They should understand not everyone knows what those organizations/groups are about. And why should they be sensitive to a completely legitimate question (with no ill-intentions) like that if there is nothing to hide?

[giripriya]

I haven't been on that list in a long time but there is some doubt as to the authentic lineage of the True Buddha School and NKT - the owner of the site has a 'Buddhist Cults' website where he gives an A-Z list of controversial Buddhist groups with links and background. NKT from what I have been told is very anti - Dalai Lama, they are very much 'out there'(visible) so lots of newbies get lured in w/o knowing this, advertise heavily and under different names in many different publications, much more so than any other Tibetan Buddhist group. It would not surprise me if they are receiving funding from the Chinese Government. I was at the Kalachakra initiation in Toronto in 2004 and HH Dalai Lama asked anyone who was affiliated with NKT to leave before the initiation began - there were quite a few people who walked out.

To answer your question, I would imagine you would be OK if it was obvious you were a newbie and weren't stirring up trouble - I would just advise you to Google those traditions and reading the owner's list(it's very interesting reading) so you know what to avoid.

[gregornot]

Namaste,
I joined and was not impressed with them, they wanted to ban me and kept my post invisible, because of my "over whelming devotation to Vipassana and respect/love for S N Goenkaji" They the mod said that my behavior was one reason the people considered Vipassana a cult"

Watching lately, this forum Goenka's Meditation Approach
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/ind...?showforum=101

This topic has heated up lately, while they may be quite strict, I believe that they have good intentions. My problem is that Vipassana is what Gotma the Buddha taught, 500 years later a religion called Buddhisms appeared based on the teaching of "their interpretations of what the Buddha taught.

From my courses of Vipassana. Principals of Gotma's teaching are to discover the truth rather than believe what other tell you.

I admit I overstepped my (their) boundaries that I had agreeded to upon enrollment, when speaking up my self learned truths. I apologized to the forum and have just occasional checked up on them.

I feel that if one believes in Buddhism, that is their right. I believe in the Vipassana approach, which has helped me in my life and health. I also believe in each to their own, but don't push your beliefs on me unless I ask about it.

I normally don't speak of my religious belief's and ask anyone interested in this thread to read the above thread on E-Sangha and form their own opinion on the subject. I have no more to say on the subject other than to Be Happy

Peace, ,gregor

[Sama]

I would suggest that you join and just ask them, silmaril. it's not like you have to be an active member there. I am a member there, but frankly, after I my vipassana retreat, I have no desire to post much anymore on that forum.

[Silmaril]

Thanks for the responses (and for not being cross at the question!)

I think I will join and ask, but by the sound of it I won't be spending much time there, especially as I've been reading about Vipassana and am planning on going on a retreat in the not TOO distant future (realistically probably a year from now). I feel I need to study more first though.

Can I ask Yogagal why Vipassana made you stop going there? Was it just that it took you to a point where you felt you didn't need what that forum offered, or were there more negative reasons? (if you don't mind me asking)

[pantelis]

to Dorje Shugden , a spirit who was banned by His Holiness The Dalai Lama due to causing a lot of problems within the Tibetan community and personally to Hi9mself , but there are still many followers that do not agree with His Holiness view on this, it is a minority fortunately.Secondly, do not get mixed with the conflict on the 2 Karmapas . I personally have taken refuge as a Kagyu which is under the guidance of the Karmapa but do not have a problem at all with both of them , i really hope some day to attend a common gathering and teachings under their presence.The True Buddha is a self declared Chinese fake guru as far as i know who has nothing to do with the original and authentic lineages of the Vajrayanna that Tibetan Buddhism follows.

Anyway , i am also into the forum, do not hesitate to enter it , you`ll find lots of useful & practical information .Welcome then

[pantelis]

always not to be quite open minded on Tantra-Vajrayanna.After meeting a Vipassana teacher they get stuck on this and do not open their minds to deeper interpretations and wisdom that offers Vajrayanna , i really do not understand that.Esp.when most have not read or studied some dozens of books and afterwards come to a conclusion Buddha as we all know taught some 82000 different kind of teachings to suit the needs of all sentient beings therefore please try to make a combination and investigation on both Theravada and Vajrayanna , Zen too if you like and after some time it will become more clearer on what path or school to choose.

[IVAN]

Originally Posted by Silmaril

I think I will join and ask...

And come back to tell us what they replied.

(particularly because it appears that linking to a topic there doesn't work if you are not logged in to their site)

[sirensongs]

New Kadampa is part of an ongoing (about 20 yrs or more) controversy in the vajrayana world. Basically, they worship a worldly guardian spirit called Dorje Shugden (the sect is also ref. to as "shugden") rather than following traditional vajrayana teachings. It is a materialistic cult (claiming to be part of the Gelug tradition). Going back to the 5th Dalai Lama, various people have warned of the dangers of this practice and the 1996 (?) murders of 3 Gelugpa monks in Dharamsala were linked to this sect. The DLama always asks NK people not to attend his empowerments and teachings.

The best source of info about it is a small booked published in Dharamsala which presents pro (the cult's own statements), con, and official DL statements about it, and journalist features about the cult. Yuk, I feel creepy just talking about them.

Lokah samastah sukhino bhavatu! (may all beings be happy, peaceful and free!) :-)

[kullukid]

I may be wrong, but wasn't Dorje Shugden the Oracle that warned HHDL to, LEAVE NOW! when he consulted it on whether he should leave Lhasa or face the Chinese??
I saw a quite detailed program around 12yrs ago about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso & his followers which was mainly filmed from their HQ at Grange over sands. The programme described how the Geshe did not follow HHDL or his teachings & how they worshipped? Dorje Shugden against HHDL'S advice.The programme also mentioned the fact that more British Buddhists followed this teaching than HHDL's. See following link.
http://www.globalbuddhism.org/7/prohl06.htm
Then about 10yrs ago on my first trip to India i was flying with Air Italia & ended up sat next to a young American woman dressed in the red robes, i obviously presumed she was on her way to India too & asked her if she was going to Mcleod, to which she replied where? with a puzzled look on her face, i said the home of the DL, to which she replied WHO? I rest my case!!!
Anyway it turned out she wasn't going to India but had been sent to Rome to set up her own retreat/school? But i got the impression that she wasn't even aware of HHDL or Mcleod or even that there were any Tibetans in India!!! KK

[Silmaril]

I've joined, and have just asked. I'll let you know what they say.

Sirensong, thanks for the info

Edit: I'm suprised by the negative comments about Vipassana, especially about close-mindedness. Vipassana partly appealed to me because it seemed open and inclusive, able to accomodate all sorts of people at all sorts of stages in their lives.

[Silmaril]

Below is a link to an article, which is linked to from a discussion on E-sangha, which a respondent to my question linked me to!!!

Article on Dorje Shugden

There is a lot of info on the board (far more than just that article!), and I'm not going to be able to read everything on even just this one issue for a while, as I am in the middle of exams. However, the above article was described as balanced by one of the E-Sangha folks. If you like I'll come back to this once I've read more thoroughly and try and give some sort of summary - it'll be a couple of months though.

It sounds like all three forbidden groups are alternative schools of thought that are unpopular for one reason or another - in the case of New Kadampa it sounds as much political as religious. However, the fact that you are not meant to say the "God's" name because he is so terrible is disturbing (in my opinion).

[Sama]

Originally Posted by Silmaril

Can I ask Yogagal why Vipassana made you stop going there? Was it just that it took you to a point where you felt you didn't need what that forum offered....

I guess you could say that. without getting into it, let's just say that what I experienced during the retreat was very profound and when I returned home I looked at things in a different way.

[pantelis]

in fact last night i was reading this & immediately you came into my mind:

I have something to say about the use of the terms :tranquility" & "insight", or "shinay" and "lhaktong", "smamatha" and " Vipashyana".Traditionally , mahamudra instruction and,therefore, mahamudra practices are divided into these 2 classifications.The distinct instruction in tranquility and instruction in insight.However, many other meditation systems use these same terms.The terms "smamatha" & " vipashyana" are used not only by most Buddhist meditation systems, but by other Indian systems , including some Hindu traditions..The reason for this is that all of these traditions at some point have used Sanskrit, and therefore the original terminology with which they speak of meditation tends to be very similar.Within the buddhist tradition, the Theravadan tradition-which uses Pali, a language very similar to Sanskrit, as its scriptural language-also calls its meditation practices "shamatha" and "vipashyana".And then we have the mahamudra practices of shamatha & vi[ashyana-which, as we know,were named by the mahasiddhas who codified them.