Yoga, as seen in the light of Vipassana

#1 Oct 26th, 2006, 01:28
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#1
Yoga, as seen in the Light of Vipassana

a LONG, but interesting, talk given by S.N. Goenka at the Kaivalyadham Yoga Academy, Bombay, 1990.

for those of you who are interested...
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#2 Oct 26th, 2006, 21:57
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#2

Question Very nice

Extremely interesting talk.

Somehow, it doesn't jell when a person of Goenkajii's stature points out that "10 to 12 Patanjali suutras are anti-vipassana". Is there need to [even subtly] pull down someone else to prove you are better? Going to the extent of saying that these were added later to appease someone.

This is pure speculation, who knows the truth?

Its OK if an ordinary person speculates.... but Goenkajii???

If anyone reaches the state of asamprajnaata samadhii, he would know from DIRECT EXPERIENCE whether Patanjali or anyone else later added or subtracted anything.

In this case, one would say: "I KNOW that patanjali did this" ... Then it is not speculation.

Anyway, i am nowhere near his level, so i have to keep quiet. My apologies to Lovers of Goenkajii. I mean no disrespect.

This is what i believe and practise: "You don't have to show the other's faults to prove that you are superior.... eventually it will be evident to everyone"

I have learnt from my Guru to concentrate only on those points which are Universal to all faiths. The Unifying points. Ignore the differences. They are not worth arguing or fighting over.

The Ultimate Unity is the Ultimate Reality.
The Universe is an ellipsoid?... or a Spheroid?? If the sphere smiles... it becomes an ellipse. This IS Creation.
Last edited by AvidTrekker; Oct 26th, 2006 at 23:03..
#3 Oct 26th, 2006, 22:05
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#3
mmmm....I was hoping you'd comment, Avid! When I read it, I also had the same thought (what you said in your first paragraph).

that being said, however, I am looking forward to a vipassana retreat at the end of the year....
#4 Oct 31st, 2006, 15:46
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#4
"Somehow, it doesn't jell when a person of Goenkajii's stature points out that "10 to 12 Patanjali suutras are anti-vipassana". Is there need to [even subtly] pull down someone else to prove you are better?"

Does this surprise you? Its clearly evolved consciousness and karma playing itself out. Patanjali yoga and Shunyavada Buddhism has been going at it ontologically since Shankarchrya and the Greats from northern india stcked their claim metaphysically around 800AD.(a guess in age)

Its merely on the subtle an argument of nihilism vs monism.

"when a person of Goenkajii's stature "

This doesnt mean hes not bound to an ideaology, which we all are.. Hes bounc to his system of Buddhism, how ever pure or impure it is...(More impure i believe, from a historical point).

Btw.. One persons awakening to ultimate reality is just that.
#5 Oct 31st, 2006, 16:00
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#5

Exclamation fully realized being

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trika_yogi Its merely on the subtle an argument of nihilism vs monism.
A fully realized being does not have any craving. Including the craving to [subtly] show the "other" camp "wrong".

As long as such actions persist, the person is not fully realized. Whether the person be monist or nihilist or atheist or whatever.

I honestly believed Goenkajii's "stature" as someone very near full realization. Have since revised my belief.
#6 Jan 8th, 2007, 06:35
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Originally Posted by Trika_yogi Hes bounc to his system of Buddhism, how ever pure or impure it is...(More impure i believe, from a historical point).
I just returned from my vipassana retreat, and had to say "hmmmmm....." at some of Goenka's comments about yoga in his discourses that we watched every evening.

he rather implied, IMO, that vipassansa meditators are the only true yogis, since yoga and pranayama are "acrobatics".

and he actually does not refer to vipassana as "Buddhism" because that would make it sectarian and he insists that vipassana is non-sectarian -- it is the dhamma, the truth of reality, as Buddha taught. He also said that the vipassana lineage was kept the "purest" in Burma.

Interesting discourses, which I enjoyed nonetheless, despite his comments about yoga.
#7 Sep 18th, 2007, 11:12
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#7

Goenkaji - Frightened Or Enlightened???

While having immense respect for the work of Goenkaji and the centres he has created world wide, I am also never a blind follower of anyone and although most of what he teaches and preaches in his discourses is scientific, logical and practical. There are some things he says which are disturbing.

As to his stature????? As a man of great works he has a very high stature but as far as being enlightened - far from it I think!

Firstly I agree with others that no great enlightened being will ever need to ridicule or 'put down' another system patanjali yoga' or any other. His only concern should be to propogate knowledge from direct experience. Some of his negative statements seem more out of insecurity than experiential knowledge.

I was blessed to be in his presence at the opening of one of my vipassana courses in Pune a few years back. I have also been very blessed to be in the close proximity of the Dalai Lama on another occassion.

After some serious time of doing vipassana one becomes very sensitive to the effects of other peoples energy as sensations within your own body. Goenkaji's vibration is not very high and gave me no great feeling of his presence where as the Dalai Lama's energy had a profoundly uplifting and high vibration content. One of the side effects of a person close to or at the stage of enlightenment is a glowing radiance of health and vigour that emanates from their body. The Dalai Lama and even Swami Ramdev [however much younger] have this. But illness [which is often the result of impurities of the mind and amassed 'sankaras'] is what Goenkaji's body reflects. He is grossly overweight and has several health issues.

He also has a profound ego - hence he mentions things like 'it was prophecised that someone would return vipassana back to India from Burma after 2500 years' and he has fulfilled that prophecy. His other statements putting down other methodologies stem from ego.

He also seems to insist that a serious meditator should do Vipassana only and will have to drop other techniques. In one of his discourses he illustrates this insistance on 'Vipassana only' by the analagy of putting one foot on one horse and the other on another. Or one foot in one boat and the other in another. Trying to say that this could only result in falling down in the middle. I once challenged one of the assistant teachers on this and stated that with wisdom one could bridle several horses together and pull a chariot or join boats together to creat a more stable catamaran - to which there was no reply other than just do the practice as you are told. Well I continue to do Vipassana and use sevral other techniques for my self development and I haven't fallen down yet. Infact I find greater strength in the variety of methods.

Furthermore how much actual Vipassana meditation can he possibly do when he has such a hectic schedule of visiting, coordinating and establishing new centres and appearing for dhamma talks etc. He is afterall, as he himself admits, a businessman at heart!

Let us not allow these issues [and many others] to take anything away from the great work he is doing but let us also realise his 'attachment' to his particular doctrine/methodology which he even proclaims is the 'purest form of Vipassana' itself. No enlightened person would have any such attachment or superiority complex!
Last edited by Sama; Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:41.. Reason: mod note: changed font color and size
#8 Sep 20th, 2007, 11:49
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#8
thanks for the article!
#9 May 12th, 2010, 19:19
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#9
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidTrekker View Post A fully realized being does not have any craving. Including the craving to [subtly] show the "other" camp "wrong".

As long as such actions persist, the person is not fully realized. Whether the person be monist or nihilist or atheist or whatever.

I honestly believed Goenkajii's "stature" as someone very near full realization. Have since revised my belief.
Well brother, am not sure whether Goenkaji if fully liberated or not but any liberated person(if we look into the history) has always said that there is Law of Nature irrespective of its kind but there is a Principle and the world is acting reacting on it . Nihilism means rejection of any omnipresent truth or any kind of principle...so ant liberal will speak truth and condemn if anything is a wrong practice !!!
#10 Sep 1st, 2010, 12:45
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#10

Thumbs up Vipassana a Great way of realisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sama View Post I just returned from my vipassana retreat, and had to say "hmmmmm....." at some of Goenka's comments about yoga in his discourses that we watched every evening.

he rather implied, IMO, that vipassansa meditators are the only true yogis, since yoga and pranayama are "acrobatics".

and he actually does not refer to vipassana as "Buddhism" because that would make it sectarian and he insists that vipassana is non-sectarian -- it is the dhamma, the truth of reality, as Buddha taught. He also said that the vipassana lineage was kept the "purest" in Burma.

Interesting discourses, which I enjoyed nonetheless, despite his comments about yoga.
Dear Sama,
I did my 10 days course on vipassana at Igatpuri in Feb 2007, and it was the best experience of my lifetime which changed the course of my life for a ordinary bhakt like me god gave me a first hand experience of Spirituality what I always read I experienced on the 8th day of Vipassana. Believe me that experience changed everything. Its not important to say whether what Goenkaji says is right or wrong, what I can guarantee here is that Vipassana is a great technique to realise self not by words but by direct first hand experience. Vipassana is not invented by respected Goenkaji but he is just continuing with the tradition which is very old, it may be his love for this divine science called vipassana that he might have said things. In any case its not the person who is important but the technique of vipassana. Although I no longer practice vipassana but a different form of Yoga, anyday I can vouch for this divine science. Anyone who has experienced total dissolution would agree with me.

Rgds
Yogesh
#11 Sep 1st, 2010, 14:04
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#11
What are the charges for a 10-day course for Vipassana? Why is this information not mentioned at the web-site or on the application form? Is the course and the stay of the applicant free of cost?
#12 Sep 1st, 2010, 16:01
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#12
Quote:
Goenka: It becomes more pathetic to note that all this is done in the name of a great sage like that of Patanjali. How the status of a great sage has been reduced to such an extent? It would have been accepted if it was done on the basis of Hathayogapradipika or Gherandasamhita. In that case these two books would have remained in prominence for the therapeutic aspect of yoga. But doing it in the name of Patanjali is quite objectionable as he has given a very meagre importance to asana and pranayama in his treatise named as Patanjali Yoga Sutra. One will hardly find not even five sentences on asanas and pranayamas in the whole treatise.
Goenka is absolutely right about Patanjali. Yoga Sutras are all about meditation only. But I can't agree with his words about Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Svatmarama that it is mostly therapeutic. Svatmarama's teachings were rotated around meditation with extremely poor implementation of a few asanas. Svatmarama clearly divided spiritual aspect ( meditation) and therapeutic aspect ( a few asanas for health). There is a difference between these 2 sages regarding meditation though. Kundalini awakening is important for Svatmarama while Patanjali never mentioned any such force as Kundalini or alike.
#13 Sep 1st, 2010, 16:29
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#13

Vipassana 10 days course

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post What are the charges for a 10-day course for Vipassana? Why is this information not mentioned at the web-site or on the application form? Is the course and the stay of the applicant free of cost?
Dear Sir,
It is absolutely free with food and stay, only thing one has to abide by its rules, you just need to carry few personal things as soap, comb, may be extra blanket depending where u are doing and during which period. Pls check the vipassana centre on Internet, I felt Igatpuri is the best place for this kind of meditation, also noone is allowed to talk during 10 day course.
I came across many people who have been coming there for past 10 years and they found it very peaceful whereas I went there for self-realisation and the person filling the forms laughed at me today I consider myself luckiest to have experienced which I desired. Thats why one has to be very-very sincere and be sure of what he desires. There was an occasion when on 4th day of sadhna I decided to run away but somehow couldn't find our teacher whose permission was needed and had to stay back and that was the best decision of my life later what I experienced changed my life.

Rgds
Yogesh
#14 Sep 1st, 2010, 20:04
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#14
Nice. Good for you.
#15 Sep 1st, 2010, 21:51
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#15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post What are the charges for a 10-day course for Vipassana? Why is this information not mentioned at the web-site or on the application form? Is the course and the stay of the applicant free of cost?
I think it is stated clearly, at least for the centre near Chennai, on the website that the cost is absolutely free. Donations are accepted from those who believe that they have benefited and who thus wish to facilitate the work.

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