Have you seen Jonathan Spollen? Missing in Rishikesh since February 3rd, 2012
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You have had some rough rides in India, Macha. Maybe you should write the accommodation guide to Laxman Jhula (the official version)?
Originally Posted by machadinha 
A comment I had made before, but it got probably rightfully removed since Peak and I were getting into one another's hairs a little too much and in the same breath, is that certainly at the budget end, to get kicked out of a guesthouse wouldn't be common, but it happens.
It's happened to me on my last visit two years ago, where I'd haggled down a room some, then obviously they'd found the better-paying customer for it. So now all of a sudden you're informed that room has been "pre-booked" all along, and would you vacate the premises asap, please.
(It happens or certainly in this bracket not just in India, btw. Oh, when you called you said you wanted the room for three nights? Gee, we'd completely not heard that, even though apparently all our other communications went fine.
Of course you have no downpayments or nothing, that's the name of the game here, so they are indeed essentially free to do as they please. Just as you might never show up after calling if you did, and indeed too many never do, without further notice. You might storm off and complain to the cops, but who wants the hassle, and likely incredulous hours of it, and besides you wouldn't want to stay there anymore anyway not even if they were forced to, right.)
If you were to go and enquire there about me after, of course they might come up with any excuse for it, generally blaming it on you. Like indeed when you get angry about it then-and-there, there is of course something wrong with you, not with them.
It's happened to me in India before, essentially because of absurdly cheap rooms involving you'd better go on a safari that they can't stop nagging you about all day long. You don't take the safari, guess what, that room has again suddenly been "pre-booked" by an attractively large family at 6AM after a few days.
It tends to leave one in a foul mood of course when it happens. Now you can go a-scouting for a room again with your bags in tow and when you thought you were more-or-less comfortably settled in and unpacked and with your laundry out to dry and no matter how primitive, etc.
(It's also happened to me btw you've just been heartily welcomed by the desk clerk and gone through all the paperwork and are just settling in and unpacking your things and thinking you can relax for a few days, then the manager storms in to agitatedly ask you to leave again. These places will not have a permit to let foreigners stay, the C Form that has been discussed before.)
(Another possible explanation for frequent guesthouse moving btw: Maybe you are in a foul mood, and find yourself in some real dumps, and keep searching for somewhere where you may feel a little at home. But maybe you've come into this habit of thinking it should never cost more than X Rupees, now giving yourself a hard time since that turns out hard to find, and you're cold all the time since at that rate there's no heating, the staff as well as fellow guests keep knocking on your door all day and night for unclear reasons and no one speaks much of any English, etc.)
StefRuth had commented just previously that:
That would seem like a plausible explanation to me, and no matter what reason they may have given Jonathan or anyone else.
ps
No, I think all here in the know are willing and open to answering questions about it -- and so it doesn't support any notions of "secrecy" --, but maybe less so if they're of a highly suggestive nature, and if they keep piling up before you can answer them, and the one more wildly suggestive than the other.
A comment I had made before, but it got probably rightfully removed since Peak and I were getting into one another's hairs a little too much and in the same breath, is that certainly at the budget end, to get kicked out of a guesthouse wouldn't be common, but it happens.It's happened to me on my last visit two years ago, where I'd haggled down a room some, then obviously they'd found the better-paying customer for it. So now all of a sudden you're informed that room has been "pre-booked" all along, and would you vacate the premises asap, please.
(It happens or certainly in this bracket not just in India, btw. Oh, when you called you said you wanted the room for three nights? Gee, we'd completely not heard that, even though apparently all our other communications went fine.
Of course you have no downpayments or nothing, that's the name of the game here, so they are indeed essentially free to do as they please. Just as you might never show up after calling if you did, and indeed too many never do, without further notice. You might storm off and complain to the cops, but who wants the hassle, and likely incredulous hours of it, and besides you wouldn't want to stay there anymore anyway not even if they were forced to, right.)
If you were to go and enquire there about me after, of course they might come up with any excuse for it, generally blaming it on you. Like indeed when you get angry about it then-and-there, there is of course something wrong with you, not with them.
It's happened to me in India before, essentially because of absurdly cheap rooms involving you'd better go on a safari that they can't stop nagging you about all day long. You don't take the safari, guess what, that room has again suddenly been "pre-booked" by an attractively large family at 6AM after a few days.
It tends to leave one in a foul mood of course when it happens. Now you can go a-scouting for a room again with your bags in tow and when you thought you were more-or-less comfortably settled in and unpacked and with your laundry out to dry and no matter how primitive, etc.
(It's also happened to me btw you've just been heartily welcomed by the desk clerk and gone through all the paperwork and are just settling in and unpacking your things and thinking you can relax for a few days, then the manager storms in to agitatedly ask you to leave again. These places will not have a permit to let foreigners stay, the C Form that has been discussed before.)
(Another possible explanation for frequent guesthouse moving btw: Maybe you are in a foul mood, and find yourself in some real dumps, and keep searching for somewhere where you may feel a little at home. But maybe you've come into this habit of thinking it should never cost more than X Rupees, now giving yourself a hard time since that turns out hard to find, and you're cold all the time since at that rate there's no heating, the staff as well as fellow guests keep knocking on your door all day and night for unclear reasons and no one speaks much of any English, etc.)
StefRuth had commented just previously that:
That would seem like a plausible explanation to me, and no matter what reason they may have given Jonathan or anyone else.
ps
No, I think all here in the know are willing and open to answering questions about it -- and so it doesn't support any notions of "secrecy" --, but maybe less so if they're of a highly suggestive nature, and if they keep piling up before you can answer them, and the one more wildly suggestive than the other.
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THis being the case, Jonathan will rejoin the rest of us in the next couple of days? I would like to think so, but can only work off what I know to be the facts so far - where he was last seen, what he was doing, who he was with. Thank you to the many IMers who have followed up the possible spiritual journey. This is disfficult to investigate, but with your help, we are able to work out some of the many courses it could take. We also have to think about other less pleasnt possibilities whic IMers have respectfully alluded to, that he migh simply have died through privation, illness or other causes. There is no evidence of this as yet, but we have to be open to it.
Originally Posted by theyyamdancer On the day of Maundy Thursday, today, I have an idea which is perhaps a little bit crazy. David, Lynda, friends of Jonathan: is it even remotely possible that during this entire timeframe that Jonathan is missing, which corresponds roughly to the period of Lent, there is a reason for his retreat which might be linked to a religious purpose? I do not know enough about him to fathom his motivations. But it is just an idea that occurred to me yesterday out of the blue. Could he be fasting also for religious reasons, quite apart from his health concerns? I do apologize if this is off the mark.
On the day of Maundy Thursday, today, I have an idea which is perhaps a little bit crazy. David, Lynda, friends of Jonathan: is it even remotely possible that during this entire timeframe that Jonathan is missing, which corresponds roughly to the period of Lent, there is a reason for his retreat which might be linked to a religious purpose? I do not know enough about him to fathom his motivations. But it is just an idea that occurred to me yesterday out of the blue. Could he be fasting also for religious reasons, quite apart from his health concerns? I do apologize if this is off the mark. Finally, and most difficult for me, is finding out things about Jonathan that I was not aware of and making them public in order to try and find him.
In all of this, it is easy to forget that there is a young man who would be horrified by these breaches of privacy. But what do you do? How much do you disclose? For all I know, Jonathan may be reading this right now. Has he given up his right to privacy, or is this a time when his feelings become paramount and should not be the subject of any more public debate. There is no script for his diappearance or for running this thread. The best I can do is to write with as much honesty as I can bear and to trust you guys to pitch in likewise. You're doing a fantastic job so far.
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Peak and KK, the police have been on board throughout this ordeal, moreso from the time we discovered Jonathan's belongings. If you have been to Indian police stations, you will quickly realise that they are not well resourced (one or two old desktop pc's in LJ, with tortoise-powered internet servers), but if you ask about the help we have received, then you cannot praise them highly enough. They have worked closely with us through provincial elections and holy days, when LJ was inundated with visitors. They have assisted in searches and brought in alpinists and they are curreently assisting in leafletting buses to and from Neelkanth. You can argue that they want to get this cae out of their hair as quickly as they can, but I feel we have made a strong personal connection with the police in LJ - they all have families too. Hopefully this will put to rest any further speculation about the motives of the police in LJ.
Originally Posted by PeakXV And you are consistent in your stonewalling, Mr. Sage. Trust me, anyone would have a 'feel' for & could answer those specific questions & pertaining to a familiar area in a heartbeat - especially if they were a frequent visitor there. Ask the good people in Goa if this isn't so.
Most officials are very 'helpful' & 'appeasing' in India on - at least on the surface!
Based on your experience, how efficient are the Rishikesh police? In your opinion, is there any degree of difference between what they say they will do & what they actually do/accomplish? Are they the types that you would recommend staying on top of? Some of these law enforcement officials promise alot & do little, others promise little & do alot - work habits, integrity can & do vary greatly by region.
What's the buzz about this on the Rishikesh street?
And you are consistent in your stonewalling, Mr. Sage. Trust me, anyone would have a 'feel' for & could answer those specific questions & pertaining to a familiar area in a heartbeat - especially if they were a frequent visitor there. Ask the good people in Goa if this isn't so.Most officials are very 'helpful' & 'appeasing' in India on - at least on the surface!
Based on your experience, how efficient are the Rishikesh police? In your opinion, is there any degree of difference between what they say they will do & what they actually do/accomplish? Are they the types that you would recommend staying on top of? Some of these law enforcement officials promise alot & do little, others promise little & do alot - work habits, integrity can & do vary greatly by region.What's the buzz about this on the Rishikesh street?
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Peak and KK, will just have to let you two get into a ring and fight it out. If you are anything like your avatar, KK, I would advise Peak to avoid this option at all costs!
Originally Posted by PeakXV Sorry - for those of us who have had to deal with the trials & tribulations of Indian bureaucracy - the seemingly menial task(s) can be extremely frustrating at the best of times & it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. I'm all for holding hands, singing Kumbaya and hoping he pops out of a cave sometime soon too .... but weeks are now turning into months & we'd be remiss not to suggest the plan bs, cs, & ds.
Therefore, I thought it might be helpful for his family & friends - most of whom are very unfamiliar with the customs/politics of India - to best understand the ways of how the 'local' system works. Ideally one would prefer to be well briefed on all the different 'players' they they might encounter when going into a foreign situation such as this.
In particular the nitty gritty of Rishikesh & the rapport that the locals(transient, spiritual, tourism & locals) have with authorities. Surely somebody saw or knows something more, but how best to extract that information - leaving full responsibility to police or more through the spiritual grapevine? Or are those two avenues completely in cahoots with each other in Rishikesh? Do all aspects of society share information with each other there? Based on some of the responses on this thread, I fear not!
Was this such an inane, offtopic & over the top a query in your opinion? Have you not been to India & or organized business & due diligence with officials on a widescale basis? It would appear not.
If so, how would you strategically structure your search campaign & questioning in the Rishikesh area & with all the various characters & levels of society there? Spill the beans and help us all out with your expertize then ....
Get rid of that flippant guru you have under contract - always a prudent step towards enlightenment.
No theories at all here. For example in Goa, the police rapport with locals is indeed an on going issue, often, discussed & always on the table. What's the situation in Rishikesh, baba?
Sorry - for those of us who have had to deal with the trials & tribulations of Indian bureaucracy - the seemingly menial task(s) can be extremely frustrating at the best of times & it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. I'm all for holding hands, singing Kumbaya and hoping he pops out of a cave sometime soon too .... but weeks are now turning into months & we'd be remiss not to suggest the plan bs, cs, & ds.Therefore, I thought it might be helpful for his family & friends - most of whom are very unfamiliar with the customs/politics of India - to best understand the ways of how the 'local' system works. Ideally one would prefer to be well briefed on all the different 'players' they they might encounter when going into a foreign situation such as this.
In particular the nitty gritty of Rishikesh & the rapport that the locals(transient, spiritual, tourism & locals) have with authorities. Surely somebody saw or knows something more, but how best to extract that information - leaving full responsibility to police or more through the spiritual grapevine? Or are those two avenues completely in cahoots with each other in Rishikesh? Do all aspects of society share information with each other there? Based on some of the responses on this thread, I fear not!
Was this such an inane, offtopic & over the top a query in your opinion?
Have you not been to India & or organized business & due diligence with officials on a widescale basis? It would appear not.If so, how would you strategically structure your search campaign & questioning in the Rishikesh area & with all the various characters & levels of society there? Spill the beans and help us all out with your expertize then ....
Get rid of that flippant guru you have under contract - always a prudent step towards enlightenment.
No theories at all here. For example in Goa, the police rapport with locals is indeed an on going issue, often, discussed & always on the table. What's the situation in Rishikesh, baba?
#1040 
Apr 6th, 2012, 06:53 Naan.tering Nabob
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Never a question about their intentions, motives & enthusiasm. My concern/query was more about the limitations (if any) of their intelligence gathering & thus how best to supplement the efficiency of your search within the local community & spiritual grapevine. Not an easy question to answer and it seems to have drawn some ire - so let's leave it at that. Best of luck in your search!
Originally Posted by davidgreen100 You can argue that they want to get this cae out of their hair as quickly as they can, but I feel we have made a strong personal connection with the police in LJ - they all have families too. Hopefully this will put to rest any further speculation about the motives of the police in LJ.
You can argue that they want to get this cae out of their hair as quickly as they can, but I feel we have made a strong personal connection with the police in LJ - they all have families too. Hopefully this will put to rest any further speculation about the motives of the police in LJ. We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. ~
T. S. Eliot
T. S. Eliot
#1041 
Apr 6th, 2012, 06:57 Just a dude on the website
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My heart goes out to David, Lynda, and the rest of Jonathan's family and friends, and I hope as everyone else on the site does for Jonathan's safe return.
Originally Posted by nadreg I will give this some thought tonight about the best way to do this and get back to you guys shortly.
I will give this some thought tonight about the best way to do this and get back to you guys shortly. However, I've given this some thought and have decided to not post a sticky on the homepage as suggested in this thread. I have resisted doing this in the past for other missing travelers because it is difficult to then decide which ones should be allowed and which ones shouldn't, and it would not be possible to allow them all to be stuck to the homepage.
It's always darkest before it goes completely black.
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Originally Posted by new_traveller I don't think in these modern times people remember phone numbers ( everything is stored on some device phone, notepads, ipads etc)
What would he do in this situation even if he is fit and stable after the illness.
I don't think in these modern times people remember phone numbers ( everything is stored on some device phone, notepads, ipads etc)What would he do in this situation even if he is fit and stable after the illness.
Ahem, here's one who does. But then they tell me there's something funny about my memory.What people seem to easily forget in this day and age, is you can call any country's national operator, and they'll put you through based on your info. So, let people not forget this. They have access to international number information and etc.
Nadreg, thanks for your message just above and thinking it over. Wanted to say I understand and respect the decision.
David, thanks for being back in with all your thoughts. What an ordeal for you people, indeed. I can only wish you all the best with your efforts, once again.
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Rishikesh/Haridwar police have excellent intelligence gathering resources and an extensive network in the hills comprising of local people, villagers and sadhus assisting them as informers in these matters. I say this with my own experience where we lost all hopes for a person who vanished for 3 months, and the police was able to trace the person with their persistent efforts. They did a fantastic job and without them it wouldn't have been possible at all.
Originally Posted by PeakXV My concern/query was more about the limitations (if any) of their intelligence gathering
My concern/query was more about the limitations (if any) of their intelligence gathering
#1044
Apr 6th, 2012, 07:25 Naan.tering Nabob
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Great, sounds world class! And they communicate/mix well with the westerner spiritual tourists as well?
Originally Posted by prince09 Rishikesh/Haridwar police have excellent intelligence gathering resources and an extensive network in the hills comprising of local people, villagers and sadhus assisting them as informers in these matters.
Rishikesh/Haridwar police have excellent intelligence gathering resources and an extensive network in the hills comprising of local people, villagers and sadhus assisting them as informers in these matters.
#1046 
Apr 6th, 2012, 08:10 In charge, navel affairs
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I think posters/enquiries of any sort should highlight that Jonathan may be ill- stones. Symptoms that would be obvious to a layman should be listed.
#1047
Apr 6th, 2012, 08:11 Naan.tering Nabob
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I was asking about the rapport that police have with the spiritual tourists. The better the rapport, the better the information flow. Some jurisdictions, Goan police for example, do not have the best of relations/confidence with tourists. Thus the clarification.
Originally Posted by prince09 Are you referring to the people or police?
Are you referring to the people or police?
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Well Goa and Rishikesh are very different places as far as tourism is concerned and the rapport between police and tourists(esp international) is minimal. Police in rishikesh have tightened up for sure in the last few years but they get involved with the tourists only if they find something suspicious about them or their activities.
Originally Posted by PeakXV I was asking about the rapport that police have with the spiritual tourists. The better the rapport, the better the information flow. Some jurisdictions, Goan police for example, do not have the best of relations/confidence with tourists. Thus the clarification.
I was asking about the rapport that police have with the spiritual tourists. The better the rapport, the better the information flow. Some jurisdictions, Goan police for example, do not have the best of relations/confidence with tourists. Thus the clarification.
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That is of course exactly correct, and I can hardly fathom the conundrum it must put you in.
Originally Posted by davidgreen100 In all of this, it is easy to forget that there is a young man who would be horrified by these breaches of privacy. But what do you do? How much do you disclose?
In all of this, it is easy to forget that there is a young man who would be horrified by these breaches of privacy. But what do you do? How much do you disclose? But, keep this board updated on where things stand, and to the extent that you can, and people will do with it what they can.
(And, btw, good to notice there's always a tongue-in-cheek and so humor in your posts. Man, it must be hard.)
Hope
I come here every day with hope in my heart, and although I can't be there on the ground, I can add my support in my own way..by reading the posts.
I look at this Himachal web newspaper site each day.
http://hillpost.in/
Maybe worth looking at online news sites for extra publicity?
Cheers, Vee
I look at this Himachal web newspaper site each day.
http://hillpost.in/
Maybe worth looking at online news sites for extra publicity?
Cheers, Vee
My personal blog
http://veeand3.blogspot.co.nz/
http://veeand3.blogspot.co.nz/
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