Wood stove for trekking/methylated spirits in India?

davidp80

Tasuray,

I appreciate your input, but you have to ask yourself: Is burning fossil fuels really more environmentally sound than burning dead, dry twigs that are found lying along the trail? Like I mentioned at the outset of this topic, I WILL NOT be using wood in areas of scarcity, such as Ladakh and the northern areas of Himachal Pradesh. Although it may be possible to find wood to burn in these territories, I would be taking a precious resource away from the locals, and that is really the last thing that I want to do. Elsewhere, who is going to want to burn small twigs?

I do understand that I will be violating the 'leave no trace' ethic, which I try to follow as closely as possible....but in my mind, I feel I'm making the more ethical choice by choosing not to use fossil fuels. If someone could convince me otherwise, I am open to the possibility.

Any more feedback is appreciated,

-Dave

arunchs

I understand that using deadwood and twigs doesnt sound that bad. But carrying a stove is anyday far more environment friendly than using wood.

First thing, wood doesnt burn as cleanly and completely as fossil fuels and causes more pollution due to half burnt gases. Do remember that fossil fuels are cleaned up and processed to remove chemicals producing unwanted gases, and is made to burn as clean as possible before it comes you. So wood doesnt make an ethical choice by any means.

Anyway you would not use wood in the National Parks and where there is scrcity, which generally means you would not get to use wood in almost any place. Scarcity of wood for any use exists nearly anywhere you go in India.

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davidp80

Arunchs,

Thanks for your insight. Could you explain what you mean by "half burnt gases."

From what I understand, no fuel (including wood) should be burned in excess. Unlike petroleum, however, wood is a renewable resource. Wood has also been burned for thousands of years, and ceased to cause the extreme environmental impacts that the burning of fossil fuels has created today - namely, the ever-increasing threat of global warming. Here is a brief summary of the environmental impact of wood burning:

"Along with CO2 and trace amounts of various other gases, an open wood-burning fire emits between 40 and 60 grams of particulate waste into the airshed per hour. The gaseous emissions from a wood fire are considered by scientists to be environmentally benign, as a fallen tree will emit the same amount of CO2 into the atmosphere whether it is burned or left to rot, and the same tree will have converted many times that amount of CO2 to oxygen before it was cut down. The main environmental concern with regards to wood burning is the inhalation of the exhaust particulates, especially those known as PM-10's, which are particles small enough to lodge in the lungs."

Now, we all know that the burning of petroleum is not "considered by scientists to be environmentally benign." In actuality it is one of the biggest problems facing life on this planet today - our over-dependence and the havoc our use is creating on the environment.

And, of course, India has its fair share of evergreens, and at the bottom of evergreens, you almost always find an abundance of dead, dry branches. Would I be taking away from the locals by harvesting a handful of these every evening? (I ask this in all sincerity).

Thanks everyone,

-Dave

AvidTrekker

As opposed to cutting and burning wood, the burning of dead, dry, fallen-on-the-ground branches would be a more ethical choice coz they are renewable and wood burning has been going on for thousands of years.

Even better as opposed to using kerosene coz its non renewable.

As regards "half-burnt" gases, new versions of wood burning stoves are very very efficient burners. [see "Sierra" stove photo in post no 12 above] With this particular stove, we observed that the residue was like the manufactured version of "vibhuuti" or "bhabhuuti" which one applies to one's forehead in a shiva temple. It was of the consistency of talcum powder. No question of half burning. This was due to the fan at the bottom of the stove. We had to actually keep the fan on medium to avoid a roaring flame.

I have been trekking the better part of my life, and have been very environmentally concious. Mostly have used kerosene. Recently Harish Kapadia had been to Arunachal Pradesh and was told that burning cut wood is much better in that particular region coz the forest overwhelms the village otherwise. The Forest is spreading and re-growing at a faster rate than humans can cut them. Of course, this is because commercial tree felling is mostly not allowed in these border areas....

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vistet

I carried my meth burner as a backup for my kerosene Trangia last time , and found it to be working better than I remembered/expected. Used it in a cold camp at around 4700 meters , without preheating. But yes, you need a lot of patience.

Those interested in wood burning might also take a look at the Kelly Kettle.

AvidTrekker

Doc, Thanks for the link. Great site and very interesting kelly kettle...

Darmabum

whatever we do, we make an impact, whether we burn fossil fuels or wood. David you mentioned that India has numerous evergreens, but I think Lewis and Clark said something about that on their trip West, and look at it now. I need only look out my living room window (I live in a small town in the mountain west of America, at about 2000m) to see the effects of deforestation. Where all the houses are, mine included, used to be stands of cottonwood and deciduous trees. Many times during the winter moose walk down the street in front of our house, nibbling the last cottonwood leaves, their grazing possibilities being diminished. Downed wood is also important as it breaks down to renourish the earth.
Good thoughtful thread here . . .

That being said, while traveling in Iceland (camping 90% of the time)(and Iceland knows something of deforestation too)(Icelandic joke: how do you find your way out of an Icelandic forest? Stand up.) On that trip I took an MSR multi fuel stove and burned kerosene in it for over three months. It clogged occasionally but worked very well.
Whatever you do David I get the sense it will be a thoughtful decision. Have a Great Trip. Scott

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gqsmoothie

So it looks like denatured alcohol/methylated spirits aren't easily available? Is that the consensus?


What about rubbing alcohol? AKA isopropyl alcohol? I believe that the Trangia stoves will run on this "fuel".

ananddev

Isopropanol is easily available in paint shops as paint thinner (NC Paint Thinner) . For methanol go to a bigger paint store and ask for industrial strength solvent or if the shopkeeper is smart enough ask for methanol directly (even if they have it sometimes they don't know). This bottle will contain a skull mark as a warning of its being highly toxic. Be aware it is higly toxic and should not be ingested at any cost and one should try to limit inhalation and contact to skin.

But, none of these containers mention the composition or percentage. They will rarely even have a mention if it is ethanol or methanol (think to avoid some legal issues).

Isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) burns with a yellow sooty smelly flame. I tried it and don't like it one bit. Methanol if (>90%) burns with a clean blue (almost invisible) flame and does not leave soot.

In all reckoning methylated spirits will contain alcohol close to 75%(less or more) at the best in India (with some combination of ethanol, methanol, isopropanol, color etc). This composition varies vastly. A concentration of more than 90% is usually desirable for use as fuel in an alcohol stove.

Aaah "Everclear 190" the cure all, but available only in hiker heaven and some rare places.

rajnag

David,
You have to carry all these twigs etc all throughout your trek route.Carrying something like kerosene is far more efficient as it releases more energy when burnt.
You have to understand the mentality at play in India. If you try to do anything different from what ever is the norm, every tom dick and harry official will try to fleece you saying that it is outside regulations.
Also if someone happens to be patrolling the area you are trekking in, how are they going to know where you collected all those twigs from ?
As far as they are concerned , you could have collected it in the forest /protected area itself.
Further burning wood fires is prohibited in many protected park areas.
I thought about getting the bushbuddy myself but decided it was not worth all these hassles.
YMMV.

pip

Please forget the wood stove idea - you will have extreme trouble finding any suitable wood in alpine areas, in any case; and it is considered valuable for locals. They will not thank you for burning their scarce resources.

Now, I generally feel one should use whatever the locals use, but the Indians are just hopeless in this area! The local kero only burns in giant, heavy, inefficient stoves with large jets, as used by the ponymen. And the fuel is barely half the octane rating of western kero, it often burns with thick smoke, gets all over everything - yuk.

Moreover, have you ever had kero on your clothes or your skin for days at a time? Ever cooked in a tent in a gale with a kero fuelled stove? It is a noxious, dangerous fuel (flareups are almost obligatory in any modern trek stove) which is environmentally harmful. Petrol is even worse, as is shellite and all the other liquid petrochemical garbage.

I have never understood the obsession with multi-fuel stoves in 25 years of outdoor travel, with silly 'repair kits' for gaskets, jet cleaning, etc. Great in bad weather - not. Trangia is the best of them, but is iffy at high altitudes, takes a long time to boil, and as noted, metho fuel is hard to come by.

The Tibetans and Chinese in Tibet figured this problem out some time ago - they use valved gas cannisters in small stoves. just like the kitchen stove at home - clean, small, light, standard fittings, total control over the flame height, starts instantly, the empty cannisters are light for carrying out and recycling. I hope to find some in Leh next month - if not, I will pay the ponyman for him to boil water for me on his giant stinker! BTW, i have used a tiny gas stove at Everest Base Camp and Mt Kailash, at well over 5000m - just keep the cannister in a warm sleeping bag for a few minutes before lighting. best regards, philip.

rajnag

Pip,
Great post ! You would need standard 70% butane/30% propane canister for colder climates and higher elevations.
Here's a page that talks about canisters and gas mixtures that work for different temperatures.
Does anyone know if LPG in india is sold in camping stores in smaller bottles ?
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm

pip

rajnag,
This guy Caffin writes for magazines etc. here in Australia; he is good but like all us, has his opinions. On the 'below freezing' issue, I have used my el cheapo Chinese gas stove (240 Yuan in Lhasa) in temps so cold the river alongside our tent froze, my guess is between -10C (which we see in winter here in Australia in the Snowy Mntns) and -15C. Once warm, the cannister fires up instantly, and once alight, keeps on burning.

The standard size ones go 2-3 days depending on usage, for us, about 20-30 litres worth of boiling water.

I use whatever is around, usually Kovea, and have not noticed much difference in burn times. I received an email from a female 'ponywoman' in Ladakh, she said she had seen these cannisters in the market in Leh. So I am hopeful. I would bring them with me except they are dangerous on aircraft, and are not permitted..best regards.