G'Day Mate, We have destroyed their spirit!

Paagla Dashu · Mar 24th, 2006, 18:25

The Core Problem

http://www.sportnetwork.net/main/s119/st93196.htm
By Gaurang - March 24 2006

After the second embarrassing fourth innings collapse in four Test matches, the question is being raised as to what is wrong with the Indian team?
One defeat such as the 341 run drubbing in Karachi where the team shows a collective lack of fight and throws in the towel is one too many, but one can understand that such things happen, especially when in the previous two matches you have been unlucky with the toss and have faced deficits of over one thousand runs collectively, before you even strap on a batting pad.

But to collapse so ignominiously twice in the span of four Test matches is alarming to put it mildly. In a previous article this writer had suggested one of the reasons teams routinely collapse in a heap when faced with tough situations and grimly determined opponents is that they have stopped trusting each other, and being there for each other. In an atmosphere of constant chopping and changing, where fear and insecurity dominate, every person is playing basically for himself. In such an atmosphere nobody is willing to put their hand up when the rest of the side is unable or in their mind unwilling to do so.

When a team sees that the man who was largely responsible for building it up over the past few years is unceremoniously dropped, and not only that, but is also publicly ridiculed and humiliated by the one person the team is supposed to trust the most after the Captain, i.e. the coach, it sends the message to them all that “I could be next.” On top of that, when they see the Captain is unable or unwilling to take strong decisions and override the Coach and selectors in matters such as team composition, etc. it makes the feeling even more acute.

In the recent past, under Sourav Ganguly you could identify a group of players who were the core of the team. Now under Greg Chappell that core has been shattered. Nobody is sure who the core is. The core, such as it exists currently in the Test team is: The Captain, his statemate and trusted veteran, Anil Kumble, and maybe Irfan Pathan and Mahendra Singh Dhoni the two rising young stars. But that is it.

Every other player, from the vice Captain Sehwag, to veterans like Laxman, Harbhajan, Tendulkar, to new comers like Jaffer, Gambhir, Kaif, RP Singh, and Yuvraj, can sense that if they do not meet some pre-set criteria of performance, they could be on the verge of getting the “Ganguly” treatment from their coach. And they all know that their captain will not stand up for them even if he thinks it is the right thing to do, because he himself does not want to antagonize the Coach to whom he has handed off lots of responsibilities that normally would fall within the purview of the Captain.

Dravid’s team has twice sent a clear message to their skipper, about standing by him, first in Karachi, and now in Mumbai. I hope he pays heed to the message and takes the reigns more into his hands and steps in when necessary, even if it means on occasion telling his know-it-all coach and interfering selectors, who now even conduct portions of the team's net sessions, to back off. The question is whether Dravid has the nous to do so? The answer to that could well determine how his tenure as Test captain turns out.

New-South-Welshman · Mar 25th, 2006, 20:22

I reckon Dravid is a decent captain. I like him better than Ganguly, because Ganguly was an arrogant pr*ck. What I'd like to see with the Indian team is getting more decent bowlers. I've been in awe of Irfan Pathan for the previous two years, now let's hope they can recruit another young pace bowler, so they can match other nations like the Aussies in Oz. From what I remember during the recent games with the Poms, Sreesanth (correct me if I'm wrong) wasn't that bad.

Paagla Dashu · Mar 26th, 2006, 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by New-South-Welshman

I reckon Dravid is a decent captain. I like him better than Ganguly, because Ganguly was an arrogant pr*ck.

Being arrogant is not the monopoly of certain sledging nations - Ganguly's "mistake' was to threaten that monopoly instead of cowering down.

Two capatins never allowed their players to be bullied or be the victim of racist sledging - Arjuna Ranatunga and Saurav Ganguly - its not a surprise that certain teams that depend on racist sledging to put down opponents never liked them.

New-South-Welshman · Mar 26th, 2006, 07:43

No it's not that. Saurav Ganguly played for himself, and not for the team. I love the Indian cricket team. He was doing good at first but then, he just lost the plot. And Arjuna Ranatunga. What a poor sport. Walking off against England because the umpire caught M Muraliduran "chucking". Boo-hoo. Ranatunga was too fat anyway. He needed runners when he was in to bat.

Paagla Dashu · Mar 26th, 2006, 08:04

No enquiry has ever come to the conclusion that Murali chucked. Those who cannot play him can come up with any excuses but it does not give anybody the right to insult him.

Those who describe Arjuna Ranatunga as poor sport or Saurav Ganguly as selfish - less said the better.

All I can say is its rich.

gautam_n_ · Mar 26th, 2006, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by New-South-Welshman

No it's not that. Saurav Ganguly played for himself, and not for the team. I love the Indian cricket team. He was doing good at first but then, he just lost the plot. And Arjuna Ranatunga. What a poor sport. Walking off against England because the umpire caught M Muraliduran "chucking". Boo-hoo. Ranatunga was too fat anyway. He needed runners when he was in to bat.

He didn't walk away because it was claimed someone chucked. If I remember correctly he walked away because Muralitharan was cleared of chucking and then they again claimed he chucked. Secondly - I would have supported the walking off the pitch by Indian team when tendulkar was the captain and certain remarks from the south african bowler were thrown by the bowler when he got smashed around by Dravid for a few boundaries and a six.

Apparently I liked the fact that Ganguly didn't take crap from people when he was a captain. Dravid won't survive much as a captain if he doesn't stand by his team.

New-South-Welshman · Mar 26th, 2006, 15:07

Well teams react like that when they play poorly. They get frustrated and just sook about it. Win some games, get some confidence, and show us what your made of. The actions of these teams speak so loud, but we can't hear what your saying.

Digital Drifter · Mar 26th, 2006, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by New-South-Welshman

I reckon Dravid is a decent captain. I like him better than Ganguly, because Ganguly was an arrogant pr*ck.

NSW.

WRT to Ganguly, I could never put my finger on it till I read this column.

http://www.mikemarqusee.com/index.php?p=121

Quote:

Saurav Ganguly is an angular, arrogant, awkward character. He sports a pleasant smile that looks to his opponents like a superior smirk. He is polite but never deferential –something of a revolution in the culture of Indian cricket. He sees himself as the equal – if not the superior – of anyone, on or off the field. Refreshingly, he is not mealy-mouthed (the vice of cricketers too eager to please). He’s a man with a mind of his own and demands to be treated as such.

...
But he exudes a high opinion of himself, and an easy-going contempt for those who do not share that opinion. Understandably, these traits drive his opponents and some of his colleagues mad, but they have been integral to the success he has achieved as captain.
...

Mike writes a column for the Hindu.

I remember the bit about making Steve Waugh wait on the pitch; & my jaw dropped when I read that.

Reading Mike's column, I agree. Ganguly is the first Indian in-your-face captain who dismisses people with a smile. & he knows, that they know he knows that they know.

Paagla Dashu · Mar 27th, 2006, 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by New-South-Welshman

The actions of these teams speak so loud, but we can't hear what your saying.

Beacuse they do not go around calling players of other teams "Black Cu#t", that's why!

Ganguly and Arjuna gave it back to those arrogant "mobs" with their own currency and that's why they are bigger than life in the subcontinent whereas they may not be liked much by the arrogant teams and their supporters.

Do a google search on Stephen Hagan and his latest book.

gautam_n_ · Mar 27th, 2006, 08:08

DD : I was delighted when they made Ganguly captain because like his predeccors(not sure of the spelling) he didn't take crap from people. At least some of the young got a lot of backing from him.

I only wish if someone like that becomes a captain again. I would play much better if I had the knowledge that I wouldn't be thrown of the team. Doesn't do good for team morale. And when you change a team you must do it slowly.

SHIMLA · Mar 27th, 2006, 08:37

Saurav Ganguly was an aggressive captain and the Indian team needed one like him. However, he was no Mike Brearley to warrant a place in the side purely for his captaincy; and his failures with the bat ensured that he was shown the door; and rightly so, in my opinion.

Too often in the past has the Indian team accomodated players on past performances, rather than on current form.

If current form demands that Sachin Tendulkar be left out and a youngster be given an opportunity, then so be it.

New-South-Welshman · Mar 27th, 2006, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paagla Dashu

Beacuse they do not go around calling players of other teams "Black Cu#t", that's why!

I only remember Darren Lehmann saying that, and he was a below average player anyway. Well, we're talking about captains here, and Ricky Ponting isn't an aggressive player when it comes to attitude, but he lets his aggressive bat do the talking. Most players when they become captain, their batting average drops, but Ricky Ponting has remained steady, if not, has achieved a higher batting average. The Aussies hadn't won a series in India (I think) since 1969, until the recent tour in 2004. Ganguly was whingeing about the (Aussie suited) green pitch in the 2nd or 3rd test, and when he didn't get his way, all of a sudden he was "injured". I mean, give me a break. I think Dravid is a decent choice. I mean, look at what he did with India, to Pakistan in the recent one-day series. 4-1. So I think they're going to get stronger in one dayers. But in tests, they're the same... inconsistent.

Paagla Dashu · Mar 27th, 2006, 11:17

Leyton Hewitt, Adam Gilchrist, Shane Warne.

Google together with "Stephen Hagan".

somnath · Mar 27th, 2006, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by New-South-Welshman

Most players when they become captain, their batting average drops, but ......

Good discussion once again. BTW, is it a comparison between :

1. Captain Sourav and Captain Dravid? (my vote goes to Sourav)
2. Batsman Sourav and Batsman Dravid? (Dravid – consistent, dependable, Sourav - entertainer)
Or
3. Captain Sourav and Batsman Dravid? (sorry, cant mix it

.)

Paagla Dashu · Mar 31st, 2006, 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by somnath

Good discussion once again. BTW, is it a comparison between :

1. Captain Sourav and Captain Dravid? (my vote goes to Sourav)
2. Batsman Sourav and Batsman Dravid? (Dravid – consistent, dependable, Sourav - entertainer)
Or
3. Captain Sourav and Batsman Dravid? (sorry, cant mix it

.)

Well said, Somnath.

Mar 24th, 2006, 18:25	#1
Paagla Dashu Unreasonably Unreasonable Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Where They Wear Clogs Posts: 1,223	G'Day Mate, We have destroyed their spirit! The Core Problem http://www.sportnetwork.net/main/s119/st93196.htm By Gaurang - March 24 2006 After the second embarrassing fourth innings collapse in four Test matches, the question is being raised as to what is wrong with the Indian team? One defeat such as the 341 run drubbing in Karachi where the team shows a collective lack of fight and throws in the towel is one too many, but one can understand that such things happen, especially when in the previous two matches you have been unlucky with the toss and have faced deficits of over one thousand runs collectively, before you even strap on a batting pad. But to collapse so ignominiously twice in the span of four Test matches is alarming to put it mildly. In a previous article this writer had suggested one of the reasons teams routinely collapse in a heap when faced with tough situations and grimly determined opponents is that they have stopped trusting each other, and being there for each other. In an atmosphere of constant chopping and changing, where fear and insecurity dominate, every person is playing basically for himself. In such an atmosphere nobody is willing to put their hand up when the rest of the side is unable or in their mind unwilling to do so. When a team sees that the man who was largely responsible for building it up over the past few years is unceremoniously dropped, and not only that, but is also publicly ridiculed and humiliated by the one person the team is supposed to trust the most after the Captain, i.e. the coach, it sends the message to them all that “I could be next.” On top of that, when they see the Captain is unable or unwilling to take strong decisions and override the Coach and selectors in matters such as team composition, etc. it makes the feeling even more acute. In the recent past, under Sourav Ganguly you could identify a group of players who were the core of the team. Now under Greg Chappell that core has been shattered. Nobody is sure who the core is. The core, such as it exists currently in the Test team is: The Captain, his statemate and trusted veteran, Anil Kumble, and maybe Irfan Pathan and Mahendra Singh Dhoni the two rising young stars. But that is it. Every other player, from the vice Captain Sehwag, to veterans like Laxman, Harbhajan, Tendulkar, to new comers like Jaffer, Gambhir, Kaif, RP Singh, and Yuvraj, can sense that if they do not meet some pre-set criteria of performance, they could be on the verge of getting the “Ganguly” treatment from their coach. And they all know that their captain will not stand up for them even if he thinks it is the right thing to do, because he himself does not want to antagonize the Coach to whom he has handed off lots of responsibilities that normally would fall within the purview of the Captain. Dravid’s team has twice sent a clear message to their skipper, about standing by him, first in Karachi, and now in Mumbai. I hope he pays heed to the message and takes the reigns more into his hands and steps in when necessary, even if it means on occasion telling his know-it-all coach and interfering selectors, who now even conduct portions of the team's net sessions, to back off. The question is whether Dravid has the nous to do so? The answer to that could well determine how his tenure as Test captain turns out.

Mar 25th, 2006, 20:22	#2
New-South-Welshman Drunk Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, NSW Posts: 1,376	I reckon Dravid is a decent captain. I like him better than Ganguly, because Ganguly was an arrogant pr*ck. What I'd like to see with the Indian team is getting more decent bowlers. I've been in awe of Irfan Pathan for the previous two years, now let's hope they can recruit another young pace bowler, so they can match other nations like the Aussies in Oz. From what I remember during the recent games with the Poms, Sreesanth (correct me if I'm wrong) wasn't that bad. __________________ Mr. Burns "Non-violence never solved anything!"

Mar 27th, 2006, 08:37	#11
SHIMLA Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Yangon, MYANMAR Posts: 4,125	Saurav Ganguly was an aggressive captain and the Indian team needed one like him. However, he was no Mike Brearley to warrant a place in the side purely for his captaincy; and his failures with the bat ensured that he was shown the door; and rightly so, in my opinion. Too often in the past has the Indian team accomodated players on past performances, rather than on current form. If current form demands that Sachin Tendulkar be left out and a youngster be given an opportunity, then so be it. __________________ Whoever said money can't buy happiness didn't know where to shop !

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Mar 26th, 2006, 07:43	#4
New-South-Welshman Drunk Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, NSW Posts: 1,376	No it's not that. Saurav Ganguly played for himself, and not for the team. I love the Indian cricket team. He was doing good at first but then, he just lost the plot. And Arjuna Ranatunga. What a poor sport. Walking off against England because the umpire caught M Muraliduran "chucking". Boo-hoo. Ranatunga was too fat anyway. He needed runners when he was in to bat.

Mar 26th, 2006, 08:04	#5
Paagla Dashu Unreasonably Unreasonable Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Where They Wear Clogs Posts: 1,223	No enquiry has ever come to the conclusion that Murali chucked. Those who cannot play him can come up with any excuses but it does not give anybody the right to insult him. Those who describe Arjuna Ranatunga as poor sport or Saurav Ganguly as selfish - less said the better. All I can say is its rich.

Mar 26th, 2006, 15:07	#7
New-South-Welshman Drunk Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, NSW Posts: 1,376	Well teams react like that when they play poorly. They get frustrated and just sook about it. Win some games, get some confidence, and show us what your made of. The actions of these teams speak so loud, but we can't hear what your saying.

Mar 27th, 2006, 08:08	#10
gautam_n_ Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Somwhere on earth Posts: 81	DD : I was delighted when they made Ganguly captain because like his predeccors(not sure of the spelling) he didn't take crap from people. At least some of the young got a lot of backing from him. I only wish if someone like that becomes a captain again. I would play much better if I had the knowledge that I wouldn't be thrown of the team. Doesn't do good for team morale. And when you change a team you must do it slowly.

Mar 27th, 2006, 11:17	#13
Paagla Dashu Unreasonably Unreasonable Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Where They Wear Clogs Posts: 1,223	Leyton Hewitt, Adam Gilchrist, Shane Warne. Google together with "Stephen Hagan".

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