The Creator vs. The Law of Cause & Effect

#1 Feb 18th, 2004, 23:00
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  • dharmasoul is offline
#1
One of Volga's previous postings called 'The Supply of Souls' has stirred me to write and hopefully get a Hindu take on something I find very curious. There are several points that could be considered relevant in my posting on 'The Supply of Souls', so check it out if you have a moment.

I'm curious how Hinduism deals with the Law of Cause & Effect on one hand and a 'God' as a creator on the other. From a Buddhist point of view they cannot exist in the same teachings. Of course, they may be able to exist in the same teachings, and my curiosity is asking, "How?" I shall explain.

But first consider that I am totally ignorant when it comes to Hinduism and I can only offer – with total respect to other’s point of view and beliefs – a point of view of a Buddhist with a curious mind. So here goes .........

Reflect on the following:

If the existence of consciousness / mind / time had a beginning, then 'something' must have produced that beginning. All phenomena MUST have a cause.

If that 'something' produced the first moment of mind / time etc, then it must have existed prior to that first moment.

If that 'something' existed prior to the first moment, then it must be permanent (not caused by something) fixed, unchangeable.

If that 'something' is unchangeable (fixed, permanent), then how can it produce anything? If that 'something' were permanent / unchangeable, it would not be able to exist (to be produced, to exist and cease to exist).

How can that 'God' as a creator create something? The creator itself MUST (in accordance with The Law of Cause & Effect) have a cause. Therefore what created the creator? What created the creator’s creator? ...... and so on and so forth.

On that basis (the Law of cause and Effect and Impermanence), how is a 'God' as a creator recognized as valid in Hinduism? How can a God as a creator exist side by side with The Law of Cause and Effect?

From a Buddhist point of view; time, the creation of 'souls' (as it is described in the orginal post) or existence of mind has no first point and no beginning .......... and of course, there is no God as a creator.

Thanks in advance. PEACE.
~ "Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion" ~ H.H. XIV Dalai Lama
#2 Feb 19th, 2004, 14:48
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  • absolut is offline
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in hinduism the law of cause and effect is only applicable on material/worldly things. God is permanent. Always had been there, always will be there. The law of cause and effect and a God principle can perfectly go together because in hindu philosophy God isn't seen in the way for example the christian God is. it is to say as the one who is actively pulling all the strings. The permanence of God and the law of cause and effect going on in the world of the living exist practically independant. Therefor there are no temples for the God, of which all other hindu gods are manifestations, because the god principle that is the base principle of everything in hinduism cannot be seen, contrary to christianity for example, as something that directly takes actions in the world/universe.
the concept of that God must be created by another creator is a pure perception of what you could call the materialistic/logical branch of philosphy. that's why in buddhism the law of cause and effect and God cannot go together because buddhist thought is completely built on base of this form of logical philosophical thinking. of course for material things everything has a cause. but God is not something materialistic, and so it cannot be approached and studied on a strict scientific method on which logical philosphy is built. the world strictly has to be seen as a manifestation of God, he hasn't even actively "created" it and therefor has no direct influence on cause and effect.
Hopefully these reflections can contribute to the discussion.
#3 Feb 20th, 2004, 21:50
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Thank you, absolut for your answer. Yes, maybe I am thinking on this from a wrong angle.

From what you're writing, would it be right to say that there is no God the creator in Hinduism? That's what I'm reading from your answer ....... but I could quite easily have the wrong end of the stick!!!!

And if there is God a creator in Hinduism, how can he produce something when he is permanent?

Of course, I take 'Permanent' from the Buddhist definition -'unchangable, fixed' ...... which from the Buddhist point of view cannot exist. Except for the element of 'Space' which is merely occupied by phenomena ....... and, hummmmmmm ........ my memory also nags me that there is something else (element or something) that can be defined as permanent ....... but it escapes me right now.

Would your definition of 'Permanent' / 'Impermanent' differ from mine?
#4 Nov 11th, 2004, 06:58
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Hi, I am not a Hindu but here is my limited understanding on some of it.

There is the premise that LOVE is the only permanent unchanging reality, TRUTH is that Love. Everything othere than Love and the Truth of Love changes, is an illusion, not real, shall perish.

Meher Baba wrote in God Speaks and I have developed an analogy about it so here goes. In the beginning was the Word (Genisis) Shabd, Name, Logos, Dharma, the Word, Shabd, etc., was, is and always will be. But in the beginning was the thought "WHO AM I" So okay forget the name God as it is only a handle, I'll go for Shabd for the time being, the Shabd, the life force of all creation exists, just is there alway. Meher Baba proposed that at some given point the Shabd had a dream, a thought, think of it as the Eternal in deep meditation and a realisation or thought comes "WHO AM I", with this the Shabd manifested, woke up, GOD stirred. At this point Meher Baba called it the "WHIM" and all of creation came forth, I reckon GOD sneezed and spread forth the essence of all being, as the ocean is in the drop so the drop is in the ocean. So now we know that we are all spital, (souls). Ok The purpose, in order to know one has to experience, the Shabd is the manifestation of all knowledge and the experience of all is that knowledge. We, that is all of universal creation experience in order to fulfill "Who Am I", we ask this ourselves, keeping the process happing.

Cause and effect are the tools for really knowing the light and the dark, the yin and the yang of everything. In absolutely verything that our spiritual, mental and physical forms expereince, we as once gas, water, rock, worms, etc etc., male and female, black, white, thin, fat, healthy, sick, wealthy, poor, you name it and we have done it or are going to do it, there are opposites, we as beings (souls) contain that experiece and until we have experienced absulutely everything and absolutely every form within creation we do not move to the next form. Once we have no more interest in an experience, have had our fill then we move to the next on the list. If we live in extremes then bounce bounce, bang bang all over the place. The point of balance is what the cause and effect are for, to slow or stop the pendulan from swinging through the experience, find balance have knowledge and thus merge back to the SHABD or GOD.

So we, that is us as Souls, the spital of Shabd are the sensory points for God, like the nerve sensors on our body, we are like that for God, Karma, Cause and Effect are mere methods of testing the boundaries, the invisible force field and through prayer, suplication and meditation we live in the hope of not burning our fingers any more and and can just get back to the source, Shabd and say enough already.

I know that this is a real loose Hindu version but may not be also.


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