Is enlightenment an illusion?

Ditto!KK

that Self includes un- and semi- conciousness?

Please excuse me while I go and do three years on psychology. And then another three years on a different school with different definitions. And then...

But aren't you trying to divide self when you do this? The big S is not more desirable to me than the small s. Maybe there are different mechanisms of Self but I don't see Self without these small selfs. For me, if you can experience it, it is Self or Consciousness. It's nature is to recognize itself.

You can see it right at this moment, Nick. It includes All of it. And then..........??? You only ask this question when you don't see this point. You are looking at the parts. Somehow, you need to see the whole of it. It's easy to get lost in the content of yourself, your thoughts, feelings, awareness. Is it possible for you to see it as one functioning system? That includes the part that is looking at it all.

I am indeed looking at the parts there yes: the parts being the so many different ways of looking at the...

(there I go again! )

But anyway, where then, do you see the semi-conscious/unconscious stuff fitting into this? Is it do with being more conscious and less unconscious?

Quick, hand the lad a hairshirt..!

personal analysis is always best left to others to think about i reckon.

prominence for failure, crumbs for wisdom, two stand out words in that, probably harsh conclusion. Conclusions are limiting, representing a sort of finality in perception; there's are no failures really, more of what works and what doesn't along the continuity, need i say friendly more..

I haven't failed at every attempt to change myself.

others may guffaw - myself analysis is always best left to others to get wrong i reckon.

The illusory self. Smartness and dumbness exist only at the second level reality.

An excellent question, Nick. You can't see the unconscious. You become it. In a sense, that unconscious part of your Self is what leads you to 'wholeness'. Something else takes over. You can call it intuition but you begin to sense your Being rather than the content of your thoughts and feelings. It is a palpable experience that begins to illlumine what you are. I'm sorry I can't explain this better. It can't be approached from the intellect. It is more through your feeling, your life-force. It is a movement into the unknown, so to speak.

I say it with tongue-in-cheek. Would you rather me announce my superior achievements?

Well, probably most of us in this conversation can relate to that at least some, and the difficulty is with what words can we use?

Intellectual though it is, though, how do you see the relationship between the psychologist's/psychoanalyst's definitions, which tend to use words like semi-conscious, un-conscious, ego, id and so on, and the more spiritual context, with its own words, which are further confused by differing according to language, East, West, etc?

I admit its a vague question. Anything you have to say will be interesting...

Ok, I am trying. Mostly expect to fail ... and hopefully be wiser for it
.

J.Krishnamurti asked;

"who has invented this unconscious?"

K: Is it unconscious? That is what I want to get at. Or it is so obvious that we don't look? You follow what I am saying?

S: I follow, yes. I am with you on this.

K: We put it away. We say it is hidden. I question whether it is hidden at all; it is so blatantly obvious.

More here; http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en...nberg-and-bohm

Is there only 1 accepted psychologist definition of the unconscious? I wouldn't know where to begin. When I think of unconscious, I think of the impulses of the body on an instinctual level and the natural intelligence that resides there. Ego is a psychological set of thoughts/feelings that operate as a personal center in each of us. It is the sense of life revolving around you, its center. Poke a hole in it and you get the feeling that you have united with Truth. Some believe ego-death to be the first real step in the process of Transformation. But it is not the end of Self. There is still an experiencer there knowing something. Knowing all of this falls far short of actually realizing Truth. All of this is just an intellectual explanation which cannot give us direct experience of what some of the Great Ones talked about. This is why I say I've failed miserably at all attempts to understand. This is not something negative. It's the most positive thing I can think of! Sounds absurd but it relieves you of a lot of the burden we carry. Neti neti is total failure. Standing empty before your Maker, so to speak.