Touts & Beggars

Mehndi Masala · Jul 25th, 2007, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by machadinha

So what's so frightening about hijras? I may seem wilfully naive here but I just honestly don't get it.

They're human beings you know, you can speak to them. Interesting folks really, like most folks.

Actually there is a REALLY complex under society with the Hijras. They usually live communaly, have territiories that belong to thier seperate houses and have a 'guru' that takes care of the house, yet some leave the houses and take on 'husbands'. Thier being mentioned in religious text means that people view them with awe, fear, disgust and superstition. Many help support the houses with prostitution, begging, and performing for births and wedddings. If a child is born (boy especially) and they find out, they will show up and perform and if they aren't bribed with enough money they may shout curses and show thier (sometimes) mutilated privates. There is some facinating material in several books. Apparently many people really have fear about being cursed by one so that is probably what that one was shouting in the train.

I'm actually quite looking forward to seeing one or two in the flesh!

Kim

Nick-H · Jul 25th, 2007, 00:20

I wouldn't take kindly to people trying to embarrass money out of me. When I've seen them here, these people go from business to business asking money; they don't trouble individuals in the street.

issac_new · Jul 25th, 2007, 00:25

instead of giving baksheesh, we should be pointing out to the beggers just where they can find a law-abiding meal, clothes etc. oh i suppose that doesnt really work does it... well at least if begging in delhi is illegal we should ensure that no begger recieves any such 'income'. The cops should follow them around and slap anyone who tries to help them through such means. That way at least within a day or so they would be off the streets, where they can starve and rot. alone and away from our sensitive eyes so we can get on with our shopping for our western imports and cheap souvineers in connaught place, under the pretence that we live in a perfect world.

i am all for an alternative to begging. but baksheesh has been around for generations and has been an integral part of indian society, at least till people started longing for a western lifestyle where they didnt encounter such creatures on their holids or whilst getting a maccy ds. until either we ensure there are enough soup kitchens and alternative, law-abiding incomes for all those who need it. any increase in begging from such 'encouragement' is unfortanate and sad... but at least its humane; just. i challenge anyone who is inhuman enough to enforce the no begging laws to a t. at least this is getting debate that something needs to be done and soon. my fear is that people are taking the easy path to the solution.

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 25th, 2007, 00:46

for the record Baksheesh means Tip and not alms given to beggars...

There are several strong reasons when I say 'No to beggars'.. I will give several examples over here...

1. I have already mentioned somewhere earlier on IM that when a beggar across the street died, people found that there were currency notes stuffed in his pillow rather than cotton, foam etc..

2. There was a lady who came to my uncles shop and said that her son in law has brought her from Ayodhya and now she is lost in Delhi and asked for money to buy a train ticket..she seemed very genuine and we decided to help her out..but thanks to my uncle who is experienced in these things...he summoned one of his servants who was from the same region and asked him to acompany the lady to her home town..he said he will take the expenses for her ticket and his both ways plus he will give him money to feed her on the way and also handsome tip...the lady said that she will be back in 5 minutes as she needed to collect her sack..its been 3 years now and we are still waiting for her.

3. I was in college when I met a guy, who was standing on bus stop, he approached me and spoke to me in impeccable English that he was a student suffering from some ailment (showed a certificate)..he said that he is expecting some money from his parents who lived in some other place and hadn't eaten anything for two days...I took pity of the fellow and took him to local dhaba, purchased him few rotis and dal and ensure that he ate them...I was so happy that day..until after a week when I started spotting the same guy at various Bus Stops asking for favors from other people...and six months from the date I fed him he again approached me for food...

4. I was approached by a poor guy, he flashed a doctors prescription and said that he needed some medicine for his son..I took him to chemist and purchased the syrup and handed it over to that guy...later from a distance I saw he flipped open the bottle and drank the entire syrup in one go and tossed the bottle aside..I went back to chemist I asked him what were the contents of the bottle...he said it was a cough syrup...which is commonly abused by people to get high !!

5. This is fresh, couple of days back I was sitting with one of my friends having Chai and fags near my place...a small boy approached us asking to us to get our shoes polished..we refused...he said that he was hungry and asked for something to eat...I took pity and asked the shopkeeper to feed him a Samosa and Subzi...and by the time we have 2 chais he had done the same with 5 other people standing there..

There are genuine cases as well, and its not that I haven't encountered then...but there is lot that can skip the eye..

My uncle is always in requirement of hands to work on his shop..and there have been numerous occasion when we have offered to these beggars to work for us...in exchange of food, accommodation, clothes and money...and guess what in my lifetime even one has not agreed for the same...

Nick-H · Jul 25th, 2007, 00:52

No one tries to pretend there are not scam artists and liars.

It is down to a judgement call every time.

pundabee · Jul 25th, 2007, 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by shashank.aggarwal

for the record Baksheesh means Tip and not alms given to beggars...

There are several strong reasons when I say 'No to beggars'.. I will give several examples over here...

1. I have already mentioned somewhere earlier on IM that when a beggar across the street died, people found that there were currency notes stuffed in his pillow rather than cotton, foam etc..

2. There was a lady who came to my uncles shop and said that her son in law has brought her from Ayodhya and now she is lost in Delhi and asked for money to buy a train ticket..she seemed very genuine and we decided to help her out..but thanks to my uncle who is experienced in these things...he summoned one of his servants who was from the same region and asked him to acompany the lady to her home town..he said he will take the expenses for her ticket and his both ways plus he will give him money to feed her on the way and also handsome tip...the lady said that she will be back in 5 minutes as she needed to collect her sack..its been 3 years now and we are still waiting for her.

3. I was in college when I met a guy, who was standing on bus stop, he approached me and spoke to me in impeccable English that he was a student suffering from some ailment (showed a certificate)..he said that he is expecting some money from his parents who lived in some other place and hadn't eaten anything for two days...I took pity of the fellow and took him to local dhaba, purchased him few rotis and dal and ensure that he ate them...I was so happy that day..until after a week when I started spotting the same guy at various Bus Stops asking for favors from other people...and six months from the date I fed him he again approached me for food...

4. I was approached by a poor guy, he flashed a doctors prescription and said that he needed some medicine for his son..I took him to chemist and purchased the syrup and handed it over to that guy...later from a distance I saw he flipped open the bottle and drank the entire syrup in one go and tossed the bottle aside..I went back to chemist I asked him what were the contents of the bottle...he said it was a cough syrup...which is commonly abused by people to get high !!

5. This is fresh, couple of days back I was sitting with one of my friends having Chai and fags near my place...a small boy approached us asking to us to get our shoes polished..we refused...he said that he was hungry and asked for something to eat...I took pity and asked the shopkeeper to feed him a Samosa and Subzi...and by the time we have 2 chais he had done the same with 5 other people standing there..

There are genuine cases as well, and its not that I haven't encountered then...but there is lot that can skip the eye..

My uncle is always in requirement of hands to work on his shop..and there have been numerous occasion when we have offered to these beggars to work for us...in exchange of food, accommodation, clothes and money...and guess what in my lifetime even one has not agreed for the same...

Your method of reasoning is called induction. Based on specific experiences you make general conclusions. Additionally, even though you acknowledge that there are exceptions to your rule ("there are genuine cases as well....") you still manage, using inductive reasoning, to effectively label these as unwilling to work (no beggar has ever wanted to work for your uncle). Needless to say, this is a useless approach if you want to acquire real knowledge.

You are effectively labelling and dismissing all beggars as either liars or lazy. If someone made a post like yours substituting "beggars" with "Indians" or "black people", and changed the context, there would be an uproar, but, for some reason, labelling beggars as second rate people is acceptable.

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 25th, 2007, 14:11

pundabee, I guess this is a fruitless discussion, you have been answering things for which you have answers, but you have not answered several of the points..

You are picking and choosing what you need to answer and what you need not to...this will lead us nowhere and I call a truce..!!

Nick-H · Jul 25th, 2007, 14:44

As an individual member, it is fairly obvious where my sympathies lie.

As a moderator, I'd urge the truce --- on myself as much as anyone else

pundabee · Jul 25th, 2007, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by shashank.aggarwal

...this will lead us nowhere and I call a truce..!!

A truce it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shashank.aggarwal

.... but you have not answered several of the points..

which is because, essentially, I don't doubt your experiences; most of your points are valid. It is the conclusions you draw from your experiences that I disagree with.

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 25th, 2007, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pundabee

which is because, essentially, I don't doubt your experiences; most of your points are valid. It is the conclusions you draw from your experiences that I disagree with.

Pundabee, it says Kerela as location in your profile..but I really doubt you being an Indian...and that is the reason you cannot understand my sensibilities on this issue !! And if you are not an Indian then I can understand your sympathies !!

Nick-H · Jul 25th, 2007, 22:06

Errr...

Truce, Guys?

If the ceasefire has broken down, then I'm joining in again as well!

Barryjames · Jul 26th, 2007, 00:11

My wife and I have agreed to differ on the ‘to give or not to give' aspect of this.

I am selfish, because it gives me pleasure to give. I am a humanist, and I believe in the equality of all peoples (doesn't mean I have to like everyone) so I give.

In virtually all religions (I'm Atheist) the ‘alms to the poor' is almost a commandment. It is a altruistic thing, so I give, even if I was poor I would give.

My wife on the other hand is just plain tight fisted. She is Indian. I am Scottish.

~My wifes purse is more capatious than an elephant's scrotum, and just as dufficult to get your hands on~
.....Edmond.....

machadinha · Jul 26th, 2007, 00:51

On this Mafioso issue, I always wonder if a beggar hands over 80% of their earnings to some boss, that's still 20% that person would otherwise not have had.

I came across this by Jalaluddin Rumi today that I wanted to share, see also my Gibran quote here if you will expressing similar sentiments:

"Wealth requires the poor so it can be handed to them -- as a fair woman needs a bright mirror to see her beauty. A mirror reflects the beauty of a face; poverty reveals where generosity is hidden.

In life one may acquire knowledge on all manner of subjects. Yet the day you die only one kind of knowledge will provide you with enough nourishment for the journey: that of poverty."

Nick-H · Jul 26th, 2007, 02:24

My wife, also Indian, is also far less inclined to give on the street.

She gives to those who she knows who are in need, and also acts as a go-between to find people who can afford to sponsor education and training for children and young adults. I don't even know about half the stuff she does!

But we were speaking just this evening about the selfishness of it. --- and wondering why some people won't even help others for the selfish reasons...

You can bring a big smile to a person's face by helping out. It's a lovely thing to see

Yep... selfish thing, this giving

Mehndi Masala · Jul 26th, 2007, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

I wouldn't take kindly to people trying to embarrass money out of me. When I've seen them here, these people go from business to business asking money; they don't trouble individuals in the street.

LOL Maybe I should have re-phrased that! I'm not looking forward to one of the hijras or anyone else trying to hassle me for coin, but if I see one alone, I'm probably more than happy to haggle a price for a good picture. I have a group of 'alternative lifestyle' people here that regularily hire my services, and it would be really interesting to get a picture of thier 'Indian sisters'. I find the religious beliefs, culture and whole sub-culture/structure that they've created facinating!

Kim

Jul 25th, 2007, 00:20	#47
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,792	I wouldn't take kindly to people trying to embarrass money out of me. When I've seen them here, these people go from business to business asking money; they don't trouble individuals in the street. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Jul 25th, 2007, 00:46	#49
shashank.aggarwal Mr. Badboy :D Join Date: May 2007 Location: ~ Dilli ~ Posts: 5,790	for the record Baksheesh means Tip and not alms given to beggars... There are several strong reasons when I say 'No to beggars'.. I will give several examples over here... 1. I have already mentioned somewhere earlier on IM that when a beggar across the street died, people found that there were currency notes stuffed in his pillow rather than cotton, foam etc.. 2. There was a lady who came to my uncles shop and said that her son in law has brought her from Ayodhya and now she is lost in Delhi and asked for money to buy a train ticket..she seemed very genuine and we decided to help her out..but thanks to my uncle who is experienced in these things...he summoned one of his servants who was from the same region and asked him to acompany the lady to her home town..he said he will take the expenses for her ticket and his both ways plus he will give him money to feed her on the way and also handsome tip...the lady said that she will be back in 5 minutes as she needed to collect her sack..its been 3 years now and we are still waiting for her. 3. I was in college when I met a guy, who was standing on bus stop, he approached me and spoke to me in impeccable English that he was a student suffering from some ailment (showed a certificate)..he said that he is expecting some money from his parents who lived in some other place and hadn't eaten anything for two days...I took pity of the fellow and took him to local dhaba, purchased him few rotis and dal and ensure that he ate them...I was so happy that day..until after a week when I started spotting the same guy at various Bus Stops asking for favors from other people...and six months from the date I fed him he again approached me for food... 4. I was approached by a poor guy, he flashed a doctors prescription and said that he needed some medicine for his son..I took him to chemist and purchased the syrup and handed it over to that guy...later from a distance I saw he flipped open the bottle and drank the entire syrup in one go and tossed the bottle aside..I went back to chemist I asked him what were the contents of the bottle...he said it was a cough syrup...which is commonly abused by people to get high !! 5. This is fresh, couple of days back I was sitting with one of my friends having Chai and fags near my place...a small boy approached us asking to us to get our shoes polished..we refused...he said that he was hungry and asked for something to eat...I took pity and asked the shopkeeper to feed him a Samosa and Subzi...and by the time we have 2 chais he had done the same with 5 other people standing there.. There are genuine cases as well, and its not that I haven't encountered then...but there is lot that can skip the eye.. My uncle is always in requirement of hands to work on his shop..and there have been numerous occasion when we have offered to these beggars to work for us...in exchange of food, accommodation, clothes and money...and guess what in my lifetime even one has not agreed for the same... __________________ Travelogue - Around India Random Reviews

Jul 26th, 2007, 00:51	#58
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 11,153	On this Mafioso issue, I always wonder if a beggar hands over 80% of their earnings to some boss, that's still 20% that person would otherwise not have had. I came across this by Jalaluddin Rumi today that I wanted to share, see also my Gibran quote here if you will expressing similar sentiments: "Wealth requires the poor so it can be handed to them -- as a fair woman needs a bright mirror to see her beauty. A mirror reflects the beauty of a face; poverty reveals where generosity is hidden. In life one may acquire knowledge on all manner of subjects. Yet the day you die only one kind of knowledge will provide you with enough nourishment for the journey: that of poverty." __________________ Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links

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Jul 25th, 2007, 00:25	#48
issac_new Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Dorset UK Posts: 28	instead of giving baksheesh, we should be pointing out to the beggers just where they can find a law-abiding meal, clothes etc. oh i suppose that doesnt really work does it... well at least if begging in delhi is illegal we should ensure that no begger recieves any such 'income'. The cops should follow them around and slap anyone who tries to help them through such means. That way at least within a day or so they would be off the streets, where they can starve and rot. alone and away from our sensitive eyes so we can get on with our shopping for our western imports and cheap souvineers in connaught place, under the pretence that we live in a perfect world. i am all for an alternative to begging. but baksheesh has been around for generations and has been an integral part of indian society, at least till people started longing for a western lifestyle where they didnt encounter such creatures on their holids or whilst getting a maccy ds. until either we ensure there are enough soup kitchens and alternative, law-abiding incomes for all those who need it. any increase in begging from such 'encouragement' is unfortanate and sad... but at least its humane; just. i challenge anyone who is inhuman enough to enforce the no begging laws to a t. at least this is getting debate that something needs to be done and soon. my fear is that people are taking the easy path to the solution.

Jul 25th, 2007, 00:52	#50
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,792	No one tries to pretend there are not scam artists and liars. It is down to a judgement call every time.

Jul 25th, 2007, 14:11	#52
shashank.aggarwal Mr. Badboy :D Join Date: May 2007 Location: ~ Dilli ~ Posts: 5,790	pundabee, I guess this is a fruitless discussion, you have been answering things for which you have answers, but you have not answered several of the points.. You are picking and choosing what you need to answer and what you need not to...this will lead us nowhere and I call a truce..!!

Jul 25th, 2007, 14:44	#53
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,792	As an individual member, it is fairly obvious where my sympathies lie. As a moderator, I'd urge the truce --- on myself as much as anyone else

Jul 25th, 2007, 22:06	#56
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,792	Errr... Truce, Guys? If the ceasefire has broken down, then I'm joining in again as well!

Jul 26th, 2007, 00:11	#57
Barryjames Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Goa Posts: 93	My wife and I have agreed to differ on the ‘to give or not to give' aspect of this. I am selfish, because it gives me pleasure to give. I am a humanist, and I believe in the equality of all peoples (doesn't mean I have to like everyone) so I give. In virtually all religions (I'm Atheist) the ‘alms to the poor' is almost a commandment. It is a altruistic thing, so I give, even if I was poor I would give. My wife on the other hand is just plain tight fisted. She is Indian. I am Scottish. *~My wifes purse is more capatious than an elephant's scrotum, and just as dufficult to get your hands on~* .....Edmond.....

Jul 26th, 2007, 02:24	#59
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,792	My wife, also Indian, is also far less inclined to give on the street. She gives to those who she knows who are in need, and also acts as a go-between to find people who can afford to sponsor education and training for children and young adults. I don't even know about half the stuff she does! But we were speaking just this evening about the selfishness of it. --- and wondering why some people won't even help others for the selfish reasons... You can bring a big smile to a person's face by helping out. It's a lovely thing to see Yep... selfish thing, this giving

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