Touts & Beggars

shashank.aggarwal

Captain I hope you are aware that IPC has a law against it !!

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shashank.aggarwal

I agree with you 100 %....!! and the article you have provided link for would help others understand what I am talking about !!

pundabee

Using the word "please" doesn't change the meaning of a sentence. It is merely a term used politely to accompany a request or an order. For instance, there is no difference in meaning of the sentences "please don't piss on this wall" and "don't piss on this wall".

Concerning the Hijiras, you have elaborated on the view you expressed in your initial post. Usually, if not due to outright bigotry, the reason someone would not want to be seen with a Hijira is that it would reflect badly on this person because Hijiras are seen as less worthy people by a significant proportion of society. Of course, not wanting to be seen with a Hijira is not necessarily bigoted, but it reinforces these views. If they weren't rejected, the chance of them being accepted by the wider population would increase.

As a parallel, the segregation of black people in the West definitely didn't help discourage racism. Many people would still not want to be seen with a black person. And I know of whole neighbourhoods in the UK where a person will tell their neighbour, when their house is for sale, "Don't worry, we won't sell it to an Asian" (the word "Asian" should be substituted with the commonly used derogatory term for "Asian"). My point is that not treating everyone equally has some, often unintended, negative consequences for minority groups.

shashank.aggarwal

There seems to a lot of conflicts in your own mind. There is a lot of difference between an order and request...maybe I shud again quote what you wrote intitially..

your words show that I ordered something..but I clearly mentioned the word 'request'..

and I again reiterate if you support begging you are doing a Crime as per Indian Laws..

Please check my initial post..and tell me what I have 'elaborated'


Now whatever parallels you have drawn and things you have written shows that you yourself have least understanding of Indian culture or its people..

men do not want to be spotted with them, not because they are thought to be unworthy but because of the sexual nature of the things...Hijras are believed to be cheap source of Oral and Anal sex and being spotted with one means that others easily assume that you are indulging in such activities..

pundabee

Unfortunately, it is a rather one-dimensional view: "Begging is illegal. Don't give to beggars." As with most aspects of life, it is not as simple as that. This article provided a more balanced view on begging: article on begging.

The fact remains, that you are telling people not to give to beggars completely ignoring that for some people this is their only way to survive. It seems rather cruel.

Do you know how many people have been prosecuted for giving to beggars?

shashank.aggarwal

if you are concerned about beggars donate to NGO's and charities working for their upliftment...

Do you have experience/qualification/authority to recognize a needy person from a mafia driven one !!

why are you adamant on giving to the beggar and not to the charity for a larger social cause..??

pundabee

Nowhere have I said that I give to beggars. My point is that I find it inappropriate and wrong to tell people not to give to beggars. It is their choice based on whatever reasoning is relevant to them. Additionally, if no one gave to beggars it would lead to increased suffering.

Of course, there is nothing wrong in giving to both charities and individual beggars; they are not mutually exclusive.

Concerning the organised begging and the ability to distinguish: it is difficult. What I do know though, is that doing nothing will increase overall suffering in society.

Amyth

I don't know whether it's illegal, I keep a large pack of cookies in my dashboard and hand out a few to hungry looking beggars at the traffic signals... but I've noticed that doesn't make them happy at all . In fact I encouraged a couple of beggar women to start doing some constructive work for living, to an extent that I offered to help them seek one...but they all seem so disinterested in changing their easy-earn profession. I guess for some it's just an easy way to earn by playing with emotions of naïve people.
Offering help is different from falling prey, be discreet!!

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shashank.aggarwal

Well I guess people who read have their own brains and reasoning on the same..

you are saying that it would lead to increased suffering..don't you feel that it would lead to increased begging, when mafia will see that people do sympathize, they will throw some more beggars on the road..people who do not want to do anything will take this as an easy option..

What about the curses and abuses they throw at you when you do not give to them !! some one mentioned in this thread "dont you like Indians" type of emotional blackmails..

Have you ever been to a red light in a metro..you give rs.10 to a person standing and begging by your car..thinking that he/she is hungry..you come back after 30 minutes and that person is again there begging..what happened to his hunger for which you gave him the money..

Nick-H

I said in an early post on this thread that there is, for me, no dogmatic yes-or-no correct answer to this.

On my very first day in India, and my first steps outside the hotel onto an Indian street, I learnt the lesson that Steven talks about. It wasn't babe in arms, but it was one child, to whom I gave something, probably a ridiculously large something; the newcomer to India generally has no small notes, let alone coins, but a very small sense of the Indian economy. In seconds I was surrounded by children --- and was rescued by a local man, who, as many local people would, advised me never to give to such children.

I begin from an attitude of willingness to give.

I do not give to the small kids, or, if I do, it is token gift of a rupee or something. I would probably give to their mother, elder sister, whatever, but whether it is London or India, I do not like the using of very small children like this and don't like to encourage it.

The older boys (my wife tells me) can always earn money doing errands in a market or something. I'm disinclined to give to able-bodied men of any age. I'm particularly disinclined to give to fit-looking brahmins who hang around outside temples.

There is no doubt that there are gangs, that there is a beggar mafia. There is also a documented instance of a doctor prepared to perform amputations to make beggars more 'marketable'; that was not a throw-away comment of Shashank's. It is possible that the beggars most likely to be encountered by tourists may be the ones that are the least deserving.

A stomach can be filled for five or ten rupees. Rs20 can keep a person fed for a day. I usually, when I give, give Rs5. Those who demand in hundreds are just trying to rip-off tourists, and are probably working for gang.

The only place I have been physically hung onto by a beggar (complete with children) is near UK London's Covent Garden. It has never happened to me in India, but I have been followed pretty persistently and it can get too much.

To the old, and the disabled I give, if I have change. If I dont; I don't --- I would never take out my purse there and then, but for some poor, obviously hungry old person, I might find a discrete place to do so and go back to them.

I'm no saint: I am a sucker for a pretty face --- and those who share my weakness could easily be bankrupted by India, where beauty is not the exclusive preserve of the rich.

I still feel very sad about three girls at our gate a couple of days ago. They were not begging: they were selling brooms. Imagine being a pretty teenager, wanting people to think you are beautiful, and having to wear something that looks like a dirty sack. We bought brooms off them, and Mrs N gave them some clothes too. This is a many, many faceted topic, and this is also an illustration of how people in India can make some money without begging. This is one of the reasons why many Indians will tell not to give.

It is interesting to see who, on the streets, does not beg. The rag pickers must be among the poorest people you'll see --- but I have seldom been asked by them for money. Many poor people you will see who do not have an outstretched hand.

I have several stories about instances of being asked for money, but they are told in other threads. Dark glasses and closed ears may protect you from some frustration --- they will also insulate you from some real human contact.

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shashank.aggarwal

Nick you got the gist of it...Appreciated..you understand where I am coming from..

The Gesture that Bhabhi ji showed is what is expected from an Indian women..infact entire humanity ..

My mom also gives away old clothes, used to give toys, books other small things to maids, sweepers and such people..

They might be poor but atleast they are struggling to survive ..

I am a overweight person, infact I am obese..even though its a major health issue but in in uneducated circles its considered a a sign of being well off and rich...

Whenever I go to temple of Khatu Shyam Ji in rajasthan (almost once in every 1-2 months)..beggars follow me to long distance..they dont want 1 or 2 Rs.. they ask for 5 & 10...

They ask you to purchase Atta (Floor) so that they can cook and eat...but again you are told by locals not to do that as well as they sell the floor back to the shop owner..

vpsingh

Well the bout between Shashank and pundabee was getting hot.
Thanks Nick for cooling it off and a great post indeed!

Nick-H

Thanks .

I do understand why people should say not to give. There are gangs and scamsters --- but there are also the genuinely desparate.

Above all, remember that the people on the street are human beings too. Even the so-called 'professionals' may have been given little other choice in their means of earning a living.

If it all gets too much for you in those Northern tourist spots, come South, and avoid the main tourist areas*: you will very seldom be hassled.

*well.... I guess that probably applies up North too.

PeakXV

I have a question.

Is it more common for a Muslim or Sikh to give alms to street beggars then Hindus? The reason I ask is that working with colleagues from all three religions in Delhi, I can recall our Muslim & Sikh driver's giving often at traffic lights to beggars, lepers etc. ..... but not so much the Hindus.

I was thinking that there may be something within their religious practices that make daily/periodic "giving", regardless of municipal laws, a must do or more probable act.

....and for the record, I do not give any money but occassionally buy bananas to hand out.

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Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

capt_mahajan

Peak, not really. In fact, all these three religions support giving alms to the needy, or giving to charity. eg a Muslim is supposed to give a percentage of his earnings/wealth, and so on for Sikhs and Hindus.

Maybe the people you met were the factor, not their religion