'One kiss?'

nadreg

And Hollywood too, from what I hear!

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Dilliwala

We have a female cook who lives on the premises with her husband and kids. The husband is a pretty mild-mannered chap otherwise (they're tribals from Jharkhand), but he likes to drink. Not often, but when he does, more often than not an ugly situation arises. How it goes is: he comes home drunk, will start off with any little thing like "Why is dinner not ready?", she gives it back to him about his drinking (which she hates), this adds fuel to the fire, more sharp words are exchanged, and before long a potentially violent situation develops right under my nose. He's the kind who gets drunk after 2 glasses, he's pretty small, (but she's even smaller).
Now, since the alcohol won't wear off immediately, the prospect of physical violence is very real, too risky for me to ignore or hope that he'll fall asleep and maybe nothing will happen. So each time, about 8-9 times in 6 years, I have turned him out. Sometimes it's been for a night, sometimes 3, a week once, plus when he comes back to his senses, a lot of thundering and threatening on my part which he does take seriously (the first few times I tried reason, cajoling, etc - no effect), stays off the sauce for a while, in one case upto 2 years (I'm referring to coming home drunk and creating a scene - I'm not naive enough to believe he doesn't drink on the quiet outside the house, but so long as he is quiet at home, what can I do?), BUT he keeps having these relapses.
Fortunately, on most occasions we were able to intervene before he got physical with her, once or twice we caught him just as he had started to hit her. Plus he knows for a fact that if he ever tried to get really violent, he wud have the sh.t beaten out of him. Twice I actually did have to get physical with him, and I'm not otherwise a physical person, in fact non-violence is very central to my view of the world. Once, I wasn't in town and my mom had to shelter her and her son (then 9) inside the house.

He's even accused me a few times of interfering in his married life, spats between married couples do happen, he's told me with great sagacity, after the fact. To which my stock answer has always been - If I see or think u'll get violent with your wife on my premises, I'll interfere, period. I know he resents me for this, but he's a lot smaller than me - I'll take my chances, and the CLEAR knowledge that if he ever really got violent with her the consequences for him wud be disastrous has kept him at bay, so to speak (I will not hesitate a minute to have the police lock him up if he does, and what they do to him then in police lock-up, well that's another thread altogether. And I wud not have to pay a single rupee's bribe either. And that's not becos I am tight with or even know our local PS staff - I don't).

Now, any psychologist can see how fraught with danger my approach to the situations has been, I mean, what's to stop him from taking out his resentment for me on her? Nothing really. But there it is, he hasn't, fortunately - for all 3 of us.

But u folks want to know what the biggest problem I face is? Not the above, but that EACH time, after a day or 3 or whatever, she has forgiven him and taken him back (the harsh reality is that their socio-economic status pretty much determines that this is the only outcome - each time). Ideally I'd have liked to throw him out long ago, but I can't. Not without throwing her out as well. I leave it to those of u who read this to figure out the justice in that.

Sama

then that's great and that's what more women should be doing. but that does not negate the fact that around the world, whether it's in India OR America or wherever, despite having these opportunities, women still feel powerless, and that is the bigger issue. Whether it's a case of eve-teasing, sexual harassment, or a physical assault, having the opportunity available does not mean that a woman will avail herself of it for whatever reason, which may be a very personal one. In the United States, many police departments report that for the most part, a battered woman will not press charges against her man.

As a volunteer in a shelter, I work with battered women who are still in relationships and with women who have left their men, so I think I know a little bit about this subject, in fact, more than I care to know. But since you brought up the US, these US statistics are from the shelter's website and were collected by the FBI and published in the Uniform Crime Report, National Clearinghouse on Domestic Violence, Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Department of Justice and the National Women’s Abuse Prevention Program.


Domestic Violence
*Half of all married women in the United States are physically abused at some time in their marriage.
*One in 10 teenagers will be involved in a violent dating relationship before graduating from high school.
*A woman is beaten every 10 seconds.
*Domestic violence is the most under-reported crime in the US
*Domestic violence cuts across all socioeconomic backgrounds, regardless of race, religion, or level of education.
*Battering often occurs during pregnancy
*10 women a day die at the hands of their husbands or partners
*Every five years the number of women in the US who die at the hands of their partners is equal to the number of males who died in the Viet Nam War.
*Abused women comprise 20% of all women presenting injuries at hospital emergency rooms

Sexual Assault
*Every 5 minutes a woman is raped
*One-third of all rapes occur in a woman’s home
*85% of all rapes are accompanied by violence or the threat of violence
*Only 7% of sexually assaulted women report rape. This makes the actual number of rapes in the US as high as 2 million a year.
*One in three girls and one in five boys will be sexually assaulted or abused before age 18.
*In a Cornell University questionnaire, 92% of the respondents listed sexual harassment as a serious problem. 70% had personally experienced some form of harassment
*American women are 8 times more likely to be raped than European women and 26 times more likely than Japanese women.

what's your point? of course not everything gets reported. The statistics cited are just the reported incidents, so yes, if the unreported incidences WERE reported, then the statistics would be even higher.

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BE THE REVOLUTION

Dilliwala

But not with the date-rape stats, I hope. It's the see-saw principle at work. When one stat goes down, the other goes up.

P.S. I wudn't say this in any other forum on this site (I think), but considering the great sensitivity of the topic under discussion, u might play down the whole understated "difference in cultures" and "One day" routine a bit, huh?
I cud start a rant here about the difference in gun-cultures, for instance, but I won't. It wud probably get kicked for being off-topic.

crvlvr

All this going to the authorities and complainign bla bla is just more work for the victim.. The bolder women in India I know are armed (and dangerous) with say an open safety pin which they use very effectively on "intruders" Pepper Spray may be a better option for the 21st century.

BTW, I got my a$$ grabbed by a woman last weekend at a club. Men have to deal with this "problem" too.

machadinha

Maybe for men though it doesn't come as such a matter-of-course daily nuisance, that moreover they need to "just learn to live with" or something for fear of being deemed stuck-up or similar niceties presumably, and somehow reflecting on their existential position not to mention some very real concerns regarding their safety and respect for their physical or mental integrity that might be involved.

As for carrying let alone using pepper spray as a tourist, the novel idea comes up on a regular basis here, I wouldn't recommend it for the concerns expressed above. In a practical sense it also requires some practice and good judgment in what situations to use it in or not I gather.

ps

I get you, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the subject discussed without devolving into a rant for a change and so far really.

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indiadreamer

That is very, very true.
Even when a case is reported there are definitely problems here in the US. There is a case of alleged rape by members of a baseball team in the news right now that is causing public outrage as the DA has decided there is not enough evidence to prosecute. The public outrage is a hopeful sign here.

I am happy when I see a young girl with a big voice. I had a patient recently whose 4 year old daughter was very out there and verbal with a big, loud sweet voice (she was playing). The mom asked me if she should make her daughter quieter. I told her that it is good for a girl to have a big voice. Undoubtedly this child will spend time in her life learning how to gentle and use that powerful voice but it is good for a girl to start off with one and hopefully it won't get stifled too much through the years.

Where are the role models for these young girls? The ones in the media spotlight (Britney, Paris etc) are participating in taking women back to the stone age.

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drmr

Dilliwala

Yogagal,
I didn't - you did, with your post about what legal options a woman has in the U.S. re the specific case of the airline-crew Nick mentioned, as if to suggest that there are no legal options in India.
Otherwise what does "but that's here....." mean? (I presume u are in the U.S. right now in reference to "here")

I don't get your point with the statistics. Are u quoting them to disprove my point - in other words, crimes against women are higher in the U.S. than in India?
I've read somewhere in one of your posts that u've worked with battered women in India. Then u know better than I do, that under-reporting of crimes against women (and in general) is a much bigger problem in India than in the U.S. Having said that, I am not trying to suggest that the stats u've presented are insignificant in any way.
If u have an issue with my use of the term "much lower" then I take it back and amend my statement to read thus:
"...in the U.S. the number of crimes against women is, mercifully, lower than here...."

That things are not as perfect in the U.S. as your post suggested re all the legal options available to a woman in the specific case under discussion. If that is not what you were suggesting (and now I know from your subsequent post that u were not), then your wording here leaves something to be desired, to say the least.
Sometimes I get tired of hearing about how awful things are in India, and I'm only referring to those cases where no evidence supports the claim. (I am not the over-sensitive type - I stopped sanitising and/or white-washing my country's faults to first-worlders when I was 18 - a while ago).
I have NO problem hearing those criticisms that are backed up by evidence and presented in context - I wud NOT EVER laugh away or shrug off the cases mentioned by many women in this thread about their personal experiences in India as being "inevitable", "brought on by themselves", or "bad luck", etc.
But, as I've hinted above, context matters.

Sama

if you think I "suggested" that, then that's your perception, which is wrong. I have no idea what legal options there are in India, I don't live there. I only know what is available here. And actually you opened the door about statistics when you mention "....even though in the U.S. the number of crimes against women is, mercifully, much lower than here..." How would you know? That statement alone begs for statistics which I provided. The statistics speak for themselves.

see my statement above. I have no idea what crime statistics against women are in India. Again, you're the one who said that crimes against women in the US are lower than in India, so you must know what statistics are in the US v. India. I only posted what is available from federal agencies. If statistics are higher in India, the fact that the population is higher might have something to do with it. But that's my guess, since I never took a formal course in statistics. And since you say stats ARE higher in India, then that is indeed a terrible situation. Again, you know more about it than I do -- I don't live in India.


no, I never said that at all, and really don't know how you could assume that. I visited a shelter in Chennai once, to make some donations, but I volunteer at a shelter in my area.

if you know that to be the case, then fine, no argument from me But just cite your sources, as I did.

I never said that at all and your perception of that is, well...your own perception, and nothing more. But if you'd like to read about gender issues in India, then I suggest you go to Global Voices - India and read some of the material presented by Indian women.

Nick-H

I'm sure Dilliwala needs to go no further than talking to his wife, mother, cook, and reading his newspapers.

Oddly enough, I (as a moderator) get tired of being told that that this site doesn't allow negative stuff about India! OK, I don't think that is true, although a membership of confessed Indiaphiles (Oh... except for TrinTrin ) is most likely to dwell on the positive.

I don't see a lot of point in arguing statistics accross cultures. For one thing, I have considerable doubts about the reliability of Indian statistics on something that has been, up to now, swept under the carpet, trivialised ('eve-teasing') or just not recognised. In India a child is next to god; recent statistics on child abuse (if correct) are absolutely horrific.

We could talk about the situation in India absolutely in isolation. Then we would have no need to discuss the difference in cultures, or the direction in which India might be heading, or whether it is "catching up" and if so, with what. It is my opinion that, in Gender issues, India is 25 to 50 years 'behind' my mother country. It is also my opinion that many of the youngsters I know and see won't be happy until they have 'caught up' and turned India in another state of the USA.

We can usefully compare cultures in that the differences can then highlight our understanding.

Yes, by the way, I'm aware that women in India do have recourse to law. I'm also aware that women get raped and abused in police stations.

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BangaloreBean

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ranjan154

This is very sad to know that all happened with you, the only remedy is to shout and yell as loudly as you can, once you are able to get the attention of passersby and crowd try to take hold of that erring person. Try this if something like this happens again but not at lonely places.moreover, avoid lonely spots alone as much as possible.

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Nick-H

I have the idea, just an idea, this is theory and not advice... that the busy places are the worst. This seems to be shopping mall behaviour, groups of guys emboldened by each other, or at least individuals having a crowd to disappear into.

However, I know two women who have been abducted by drivers, driven to deserted places and had to escape from very dodgy situations. One was actually being held prisoner. This is a very different order of threat.

Thank you BangaloreBean. I just wish I wasn't right about this stuff.

nosianai

Gertie, it reall is a daily issue in India and it's good to talk about it.
I've had so many of those instances, the most horrific one being a guy who followed me up to the gate of my house and asked me to let him in. I told him to bugger off, that I was married, etc. He said, almost apologetically, that he 'just wanted to have sex with me'. I was really afraid that day since I was alone at home and I wasn't sure whether that guy was going to jump on me while I was unlocking the door.

Less frightening instances have been when guys would stop their car beside me and ask me to hop in for a round of 'being friends'. Or ask me how much I charge for my services, etc.

I'm not too sure about police stations since I've heard very unnerving experiences about them especially if you show up alone.

And even if women do raise an alarm in public (like a woman I know did in a public bus in Bangalore), it is not always given that others will support her. The woman I am speaking off was actually yelled at/attacked by other passengers. After all, she had 'asked for it'. Similarly, I received no help whatsoever when a man bumped into me right in front of a security guard at a college in Bangalore, and neither when I was attacked by a rickshaw-walla and was actually screaming for help. Yes, yell to embarress the guy and hope he runs off, but don't expect anyone to actually come and help you.

I strongly object to anyone talking about (Hollywood) movies being a bad influence. The pelvis of the 'dancers' is gyrating in any Hindi movie, not only modern ones. Plus, it's not the movie that causes harrassement. It is the combination of lack of sex education and the status of women in India.

I try to be alert at all times, especially when I go to market areas/malls (you've got a point there, Nick). Always have my hand on my pepper spray and have decided to spray first and ask questions later. I also found that it works to place sindoor on your forehead (who cares whether you're really married), avoid eye contact and look up, look arrogant, look anything but 'nice'.

Indianworker

Gertie,

I am sorry to read of your recent experiences and hope you are able to feel that it is behind you now and you can move forward.

I have read this thread with interest and would like to add my thoughts/observations. I have lived and worked in New Delhi for over 2 years and have to say overall it has been and still is a fantastic experience. However, I have encountered a few problems along the way and have often found myself trying to work out or understand why this is an issue in New Delhi and India as a whole.

Over the time of my stay in India one of the issues that I notice keeps coming up is harrassment of women, and by that I don't just mean foreign women.

I have had a few unpleasant episodes here but mostly they have been more of a silly, dare seeking nature than actual harrassment, although one or two instances were a bit more serious and did leave me a bit perturbed for a few hours and angry but nothing that I couldn't put behind me. The one thing that has puzzled me is why I and some other women have experienced certain scenarios here in India that perhaps wouldn't take place in the UK where I am from. With regards to Gertie's two incidencies, I have to say that with the first one a very similar thing happened to me in the UK but the second one, I feel, would certainly be more unusual back home, although I am not saying it couldn't happen.

IMHO I think the reason for these cases happening is to do with cultural differences but not just gender difference but other differences as well.

Firstly, a law and order difference. (By difference I am comparing the situation in India with that of the UK where I come from - I would like to state now that in no way do I think the UK system is perfect but am using the comparison that I would consider the norm if I were living at home). In my time here I have become more and more aware that to approach the police, file a compliant and see justice done i.e. the assailant punished, is just not here in this country. Please don't get me wrong crimes are solved here and the situation, from the victims point of view, is getting better all the time but with regards to an harrassment case I just don't know whether it is worth going to the police. In Gertie's case and a few other cases I have read about I am not sure the victim would get justice and the assailant punished. And this I feel is one of the problems - the assailant (the person doing the harrassing) knows that they will get off with it so is quite happy to do whatever they wish - they know they are not going to be punished. I would like to think that in the UK, although I hasten to add the system is by no means perfect, the case would get taken more seriously and there would be no possibility of getting into problems yourself for reporting the crime - not sure whether it would get solved though!

I have seen a recent campaign here in Delhi for women to report domestic violence and I feel the situation is improving with regards to issues like these but until everyone feels the law is going to support them and justice will be done then it is hard to convince people to report the crime in the first place and the assailant will always 'get away' with it.

Secondly, a difference in the attitudes of foreign women to Indian women with regards to harrassment. Before I explain this one I would like to state that in no way am I meaning this derogatory towards Indian women it is purely my observation of a difference between my culture and that here. In the UK I feel that society is brought up nowadays (it wasn't always like this) to be aware that men and women are equal and that a woman has an equal right to defend herself against anything that she potrays as wrong. Although India is progressing on this front I feel it is still someway behind the UK and women here are more submissive and do not, in general, possess the 'have a go' attitude that we do. In relation to harrassment I feel a foreign woman is far more likely to stand up to the assailant and make a fuss whilst I think women here tend to not stand up, as it is the culture here, and therefore again the assailant gets away with the crime.

If I could give an example, I had a stray hand go down the back of my trousers on the dance floor at a nightclub. I turned round very quick, pushed the guy so he lost his balance and slapt him hard round the face. Never have I seen someone move so fast to get away from me and I followed him and made sure he exited the club. However, interestingly the Indian women in my group were horrified at what I had done and confessed that they would never have down something like that but when I explained the situation to some of my expat girlfriends they were right behind my course of action and the general feeling was 'good for you'. Whilst I would not advocate this course of action in all situations I do feel that where we can we should make a noise, like Gertie, or do something to make the assailant aware that we do not like it and will not put up with it. Also, I feel in the UK because males in general know that we will not put up with it i.e. fight back, report to police etc they are not so keen to try out these kind of pranks, however it does happen in the UK so not confined to India but probably happens here more than the UK precisely because these guys know that they will not get into trouble and the women are far less likely to retaliate.

My last difference - the perception of foreign women in India. India is a very conservative country by standards of western countries and is certainly not as liberal as the UK. Unfortunately due to misconceived perceptions about foreign women I think we are perhaps targetted a bit more than Indian women (although I know Indian women do suffer harrassment)because we are believed to be a bit more, dare I say, easy or loose. I fully appreciate and acknowledge that this is not the case, however, if we try looking at our society and actions through the eyes of men from a conservative country like here it is more understandable why this misconception takes place. Media images of scantily dressed women, ill-dressed foreign women walking about (am afraid to say I have seen many foreign women in Delhi not suitably dressed), appearing perhaps over friendly although it wouldn't seem that way to us. Before anyone shouts me down, I am not saying that the above should be reasons for harrassment but unfortunately because of these differences and many more foreign women are perhaps perceived here in India as a bit more open to certain instances when in fact we are definitely not.

I would like to finish my post by stating that the above is just my observations on the difference in culture between my home country and India and is in no way meant to be taken as a slight against either Indian men, women or the culture itself.

To those women coming to visit or live in India - not all Indian men are harrassers and the majority that I have had the pleasure to know are great.

India is changing very fast and becoming more aware of certain issues that it needs to address and in my two and half years here I have seen significant changes for the better and continued improvements.

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Indianworker