I'm not going there again,,,,,,,,

amogasiddhi · Mar 19th, 2005, 12:13

This is my 6th week in 'India' (wherever or whatever that is). I can honestly say that there is not one single place that I have been to so far that I will ever return to again through any choice of my own.
This is not because I have enjoyed each and every place so much that I could not hope to better my experience or anything of the sort but because I have found 'India' to be a place of few really genuine people who do not hope to gain any more than a conversation from me. (Any socio-economic/ cultural reason given will not suffice!)Most I have met are out to get whatever they can. No concept of 'acceptable' exists here as anything goes, unless your a foreigner in which case you must respect this Holy Land and revere it's history like it or not. I wonder why Hindu's, Moslems, etc etc etc don't abide by their own rules in England?
As far as being 'Holy' is concerned, it is unholy to wear one's shoes when walking along the Ghats, take photo's of the ghats (it's fine to pay money to a 4 year old girl for a postcard though!) in eg: Pushkar but acceptable to constantly harrass each and every tourist systematically by playing ear piercing and out of tune 'muzak', then demand money for 10 minutes, sell jangly ankle-bells, henna tattoos, ask for money, dress up on a Saturday and pretend to be a Holy man (Saddhu) and refuse to accept anything other than 'Yes' as an answer to purchasing some material rubbish which they themselves have pretended to give up etc etc etc In a word Bullshit!
The place commonly known as 'India' is well past it's best and is now no more than a struggling facade of a copycat, a poor excuse for an actor, a dirty, noisy, polluted, backward, ignorant, scam-filled, 'look at how great 'we' once were, so pay me for it as you are in my country', corrupt, over-populated mess. I only wish I had come here 50 years ago.
Travelling about India is something I have wanted to do for a very long time and i'm happy I'm doing it as when I return home, I will appreciate how great the things Britain did for India were and how ridiculously arrogant a nation India now is for treating the given infrastructure with such irreverance and for doing nothing but encourage further full-power, non-stop bullshit to develop. Corruption starts at an early age here and continues until the person develops the ability to reason beyond aquiring money(usually about aged 70)
If you want a nice holiday and you fancy your chances in 'India', my advice is think again as you will be tortured by drug-fuelled touts, beggars whose own Holy land conveniently ignore them, Idiots who want nothing more than another mouthful of Paan, Self proclaimed Holy men who are about as Holy as I am and a smattering of really genuinely decent honest friendly wonderful humans who generally travel 2nd class AC on trains, seldom use busses, always show their courteous well-educated manners before openly asking question which are asked in a freindly manner and for no personal gain and who will always do whatever is necessary to aid you in any possible way.
Being 'Holy' according to Vivekanand is about giving up material and physical ties to the world and assuming an ascetic lifestyle away from the carefully thought out traps and scams which make India what it is today. Being 'Holy' according to anyone who can make a rupee out of me is about me giving and them taking whatever they can extract and by any means necessary.
Shame on you India! Shame on your people. Shame on your 'Government'. Shame on the rest of the known world for putting up with your inability to correct that which you know to be wrong and shame on you for not knowing the difference between need and greed! Welcome to the 21st century! Developed my arse!

PS: Anyone know what the weather in Dharamsala is like these days, I fancy a stroll around the hills for a while.

machadinha · Mar 19th, 2005, 12:32

Moga, get out of there & hit Brighton Beach while you can.

Sorry to hear you're not liking it wo/man. Also sorry you never wrote back to all the folks who fed you with good advice.

Dino · Mar 19th, 2005, 13:30

[quote=amogasiddhi a smattering of really genuinely decent honest friendly wonderful humans who generally travel 2nd class AC on trains, seldom use busses, always show their courteous well-educated manners before openly asking question which are asked in a freindly manner and for no personal gain and who will always do whatever is necessary to aid you in any possible way.[/QUOTE]

It's more than a smattering and is across all classes.India isn't for everyone,but to lay the blame on a great nation for this seems a tad insightless.Reserve your judgement until after you've been back in the UK for while or even forget the judgemental attitude altogether and save up for a Club Med holiday next time.

Ikuru · Mar 19th, 2005, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by amogasiddhi

PS: Anyone know what the weather in Dharamsala is like these days, I fancy a stroll around the hills for a while.

Ha, ha

, you sound like a angry old man. Having that said you do make some points. Yeah Coruption is out of controll in India and the "everyone beeing Holy" buisness is more like a spirituall shoppingmall than anything else.
But India has a strong flavor of everything beyond this surface.
And no, I dont think you would have enjoyed it more 50 years ago. Well if you where younger maybe...
Anyhow...
I do not know much history but I HARDLY belive the English did any good for India. If you belive that than you might aswell belive that Christoffer Columbus discovered America.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gluedtoweb

Good. At this rate tourists will diminsh throughout India.
Probably too negative. Not a very great thread for beginners.
May be we should start a thread "I would certainly go back again".
Or Scare the hell out of everybody and let those tourist destinations realize the damage and correct some of its deficiancies.

I havent been receaving thoes paychecks lately for the Work I put down writing messages on this site, trying hard selling India to newgoers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by machadinha

There was another site listed recently that I reacted to which I liked at first glance but then it also contained the lost writings of the missing continent of Mu or something,

Well all sites will link you to the Lost continent of
Mu eventually, and yeah Im afraid that site with the talking Aliens moved on to elswhere...

cyberhippie · Mar 19th, 2005, 16:30

I ain't going to Europe again!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah shite I live there, oh well "what to do!"

machadinha · Mar 19th, 2005, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ikuru

And no, I dont think you would have enjoyed it more 50 years ago.

LOL you think corruption would have been any less rampant? What was that about Indians complaining about the endless bureaucracy being a legacy of the Brits?

randomviolins · Mar 20th, 2005, 06:39

Amogassidhi,
Methinks ye needs a chill pill, mate.
India really isn't so awful. You've just had a few bad experiences, and maybe your expectations were unrealistically high.

I don't think anyone will deny that corruption and greed are rampant in India. (While I in India 2 weeks ago, an Indian undercover tv news team caught on camera 82 workers at the Delhi sales tax office taking bribes. Can you imagine it? Not 1, not 2, not 10 -- literally 82!). But these vices are rampant in most parts of the world, including the UK. And the corrupt, greedy, and desperate will use religion if it will help them make a buck just as surely as they will use any other tool at their disposal. Certainly in our own neck of the woods (UK and USA) there are all sorts of "folks" engaging in violent and avaricious acts on massive scales in the name of "God."

That said, I do understand your frustration. Lately, I have been strongly considering leaving my current city (New York) because the people here can sometimes be so cold and mean, compared to where I grew up in the Midwest USA. Yet by the end of my recent trip to India, I was whistling "There's No Place like Home" as I arrived back in New York.

I had been in India less than 12 hours during this most recent trip when I had been taken advantage of by 3 people in a row (the pre-paid taxi service agent who charged me 450 rupees but deliberately wrote on the receipt that I had only paid 445 rupees; the taxi driver who took me to the wrong hotel, apparently to get some kind of kickback from the hotel proprietor; and the counterman at a juice shop who gave me only 5 rupees change when I paid for a 30-rupees juice with a 50-rupees note). None of these acts did me any real harm (considering that a taxi from my home in Manhattan to JFK airport only a few miles away costs around USD$50, I can certainly afford missing 25 rupees). But experiences like this can really wear down one's soul.

In fact, if I were to dwell on all the unpleasant experiences I had in India, I would never, ever go back. And I would go out of my way to keep everyone I know from going there.

But despite the annoyances, it's still an amazing place. And it's a place filled with wonderful, friendly people. ***It helps to have some friends there that you can hang out with.*** If you go alone and are entering each place you go as a complete stranger, it can be really hard. It's human nature to be more reserved and less accommodating when dealing with strangers. When you have friends in a foreign place to guide you, and commiserate with you, it puts things in a whole different light.

Ikuru · Mar 20th, 2005, 08:26

I would give allot to be in India right now, anywhere in India really....

So India is tough on you? Get in to it, deal with it Let go and Love it.

It´s allot like an acid trip really, you can see the bad one comming but you dont let that emotion sink your ship.. You let go and it absorbs you and then you start to flow and that is when you blend in with the journy and the Expirience start Going....

After that you just row your boar gently down the stream and over the rainbow.

Tune in, be a Cat and Digg!
Flowers in the air.

goatfarmer · Mar 20th, 2005, 09:45

Hey Random,

Wherever you go, you have to learn who to trust and who is trying to rip you off. India is just another variation on that theme. I'm sure you can get your violin around that one!

goatfarmer · Mar 20th, 2005, 09:52

Wow,

Just read the Amog diatribe. Amazing he lasted six weeks. Does tend to suggest, the older you are, the harder it is to appreciate India for the first time.

lyndy · Mar 20th, 2005, 11:10

Moga-very sad that your Indian experience so far, did not live up to your expectations. My partner and I are in our fifties and we don't know why, but we seem to be treated very well by most people we meet. Sure, some people try to rip you off and some are rude and give one the shits, however I'm not above reacting similarly, when treated badly! and I've been known to shout and swear at touts/taxi drivers, beggars etc. when provoked! In fact, I enjoy it sometimes!

I expected and got the India I met and was in fact surprised by the generosity and kindness of many people we've met on our 2 visits. I think you maybe were seeking an India that never existed, 50 years ago or now!

I hope you have many good experiences before you leave India-it is one of the few places in the world where I come alive and my partner and I cannot get enough of it!

cyberhippie · Mar 20th, 2005, 14:41

Amogassidhi
There's an easy answer to all this stop bitchin and go home!! Your inability to deal with all that India has thrown at you is also to do with you as a person it happens to many.
he stupid thiing is to stay and blame a nation for how your feelng, just catch the next plane and put it down to experience!!
nobody will think the worse of of you for doing this.
Travel anywhere should be an enjoyable experience not a penance for right of passage.
Find somewhere that suits you and go with that!! India isn't going to change for you or anyone else if you can't wade through the S#*t to get to the wonderful experience that India provides for many, it's time to look for your particular "place" and enjoy it to the full!!
Believe me I''ve seen this to many times to relate, the situation won't get better only your resentmment will grow and you'll hate every waking day!!

Happy Traveling!

Nick-H · Mar 20th, 2005, 15:18

Amoga's tale sounds like a man who has been staring at a picture of the Girl of His Dreams, only to meet her and find that they just don't get on.

Maybe it was just a bad day, a bad week or the wrong place... Maybe she is truly the girl of someone else's dreams...

I don't know where he is travelling, but I do know that when I read of the hastles and scams of the North (which I do not know at all) I recognise India, but feel that I am reading of a country which feels as foreign to me here in the South as India does to a Londoner. The bad people I've met here are a minority. The scams and ripoffs (pedant mode: ripsoff) are few.

I bought some washing line and pegs from a street vendor the other day. I had no idea of how much I should pay and did not argue. The total came to R81: he charged me 70 and I don't believe these guys make adding mistakes! My friend said, "yes: he charged you the right price: you are good at finding honest people here.".
The majority of auto drivers charge me only a small 'foreigner premium' if at all. Most beggars are grateful for a few rupees. This is my experience of Chennai, Kochi,Trivandram etc.

Yes, I could tell about drivers that try to charge more at the destination. Yes, I have been ripped off when I didn't know where I was going, but these are the few experiences.

It's only been a few weeks now that India and I have been going out together on a serious basis, though we dated from time to time over the years. She's not perfect (neither am I) but I think that she could well be the Girl of My Dreams. She wouldn't suit everyone, though.

Ikuru · Mar 20th, 2005, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

It's only been a few weeks now that India and I have been going out together on a serious basis, though we dated from time to time over the years. She's not perfect (neither am I) but I think that she could well be the Girl of My Dreams. She wouldn't suit everyone, though.

Great stuff my man, now Thats Poetry!

randomviolins · Mar 20th, 2005, 20:27

My feelings exactly, Ikaru. A real poet.

I have posted elsewhere on the site about a wonderful experience I recently had in a budget hotel in South Kerala, but I think it bears repeating here. I unwittingly left my passport and a wallet filled with US 20-dollar bills and rupees on the bed of my hotel under a blanket or sheet. When I returned to the room late in the day, the bed had been neatly made and the wallet and passport left on the nightstand. Nothing had been taken. That might very well NOT have been the case at a hotel here in my own country or many other places I have traveled over the years.

Mar 19th, 2005, 12:13	#136
amogasiddhi Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: UK, South Posts: 160	India does not exist This is my 6th week in 'India' (wherever or whatever that is). I can honestly say that there is not one single place that I have been to so far that I will ever return to again through any choice of my own. This is not because I have enjoyed each and every place so much that I could not hope to better my experience or anything of the sort but because I have found 'India' to be a place of few really genuine people who do not hope to gain any more than a conversation from me. (Any socio-economic/ cultural reason given will not suffice!)Most I have met are out to get whatever they can. No concept of 'acceptable' exists here as anything goes, unless your a foreigner in which case you must respect this Holy Land and revere it's history like it or not. I wonder why Hindu's, Moslems, etc etc etc don't abide by their own rules in England? As far as being 'Holy' is concerned, it is unholy to wear one's shoes when walking along the Ghats, take photo's of the ghats (it's fine to pay money to a 4 year old girl for a postcard though!) in eg: Pushkar but acceptable to constantly harrass each and every tourist systematically by playing ear piercing and out of tune 'muzak', then demand money for 10 minutes, sell jangly ankle-bells, henna tattoos, ask for money, dress up on a Saturday and pretend to be a Holy man (Saddhu) and refuse to accept anything other than 'Yes' as an answer to purchasing some material rubbish which they themselves have pretended to give up etc etc etc In a word Bullshit! The place commonly known as 'India' is well past it's best and is now no more than a struggling facade of a copycat, a poor excuse for an actor, a dirty, noisy, polluted, backward, ignorant, scam-filled, 'look at how great 'we' once were, so pay me for it as you are in my country', corrupt, over-populated mess. I only wish I had come here 50 years ago. Travelling about India is something I have wanted to do for a very long time and i'm happy I'm doing it as when I return home, I will appreciate how great the things Britain did for India were and how ridiculously arrogant a nation India now is for treating the given infrastructure with such irreverance and for doing nothing but encourage further full-power, non-stop bullshit to develop. Corruption starts at an early age here and continues until the person develops the ability to reason beyond aquiring money(usually about aged 70) If you want a nice holiday and you fancy your chances in 'India', my advice is think again as you will be tortured by drug-fuelled touts, beggars whose own Holy land conveniently ignore them, Idiots who want nothing more than another mouthful of Paan, Self proclaimed Holy men who are about as Holy as I am and a smattering of really genuinely decent honest friendly wonderful humans who generally travel 2nd class AC on trains, seldom use busses, always show their courteous well-educated manners before openly asking question which are asked in a freindly manner and for no personal gain and who will always do whatever is necessary to aid you in any possible way. Being 'Holy' according to Vivekanand is about giving up material and physical ties to the world and assuming an ascetic lifestyle away from the carefully thought out traps and scams which make India what it is today. Being 'Holy' according to anyone who can make a rupee out of me is about me giving and them taking whatever they can extract and by any means necessary. Shame on you India! Shame on your people. Shame on your 'Government'. Shame on the rest of the known world for putting up with your inability to correct that which you know to be wrong and shame on you for not knowing the difference between need and greed! Welcome to the 21st century! Developed my arse! PS: Anyone know what the weather in Dharamsala is like these days, I fancy a stroll around the hills for a while.

Mar 19th, 2005, 12:32	#137
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 11,153	Moga, get out of there & hit Brighton Beach while you can. Sorry to hear you're not liking it wo/man. Also sorry you never wrote back to all the folks who fed you with good advice. __________________ Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links

Mar 20th, 2005, 11:10	#146
lyndy Gypsy at heart Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 294	Good and bad days? Moga-very sad that your Indian experience so far, did not live up to your expectations. My partner and I are in our fifties and we don't know why, but we seem to be treated very well by most people we meet. Sure, some people try to rip you off and some are rude and give one the shits, however I'm not above reacting similarly, when treated badly! and I've been known to shout and swear at touts/taxi drivers, beggars etc. when provoked! In fact, I enjoy it sometimes! I expected and got the India I met and was in fact surprised by the generosity and kindness of many people we've met on our 2 visits. I think you maybe were seeking an India that never existed, 50 years ago or now! I hope you have many good experiences before you leave India-it is one of the few places in the world where I come alive and my partner and I cannot get enough of it!

Mar 20th, 2005, 15:18	#148
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 27,790	Amoga's tale sounds like a man who has been staring at a picture of the Girl of His Dreams, only to meet her and find that they just don't get on. Maybe it was just a bad day, a bad week or the wrong place... Maybe she is truly the girl of someone else's dreams... I don't know where he is travelling, but I do know that when I read of the hastles and scams of the North (which I do not know at all) I recognise India, but feel that I am reading of a country which feels as foreign to me here in the South as India does to a Londoner. The bad people I've met here are a minority. The scams and ripoffs (pedant mode: ripsoff) are few. I bought some washing line and pegs from a street vendor the other day. I had no idea of how much I should pay and did not argue. The total came to R81: he charged me 70 and I don't believe these guys make adding mistakes! My friend said, "yes: he charged you the right price: you are good at finding honest people here.". The majority of auto drivers charge me only a small 'foreigner premium' if at all. Most beggars are grateful for a few rupees. This is my experience of Chennai, Kochi,Trivandram etc. Yes, I could tell about drivers that try to charge more at the destination. Yes, I have been ripped off when I didn't know where I was going, but these are the few experiences. It's only been a few weeks now that India and I have been going out together on a serious basis, though we dated from time to time over the years. She's not perfect (neither am I) but I think that she could well be the Girl of My Dreams. She wouldn't suit everyone, though. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

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Mar 19th, 2005, 13:30	#138
Dino Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Murphy's Creek (Oz) Posts: 246	[quote=amogasiddhi a smattering of really genuinely decent honest friendly wonderful humans who generally travel 2nd class AC on trains, seldom use busses, always show their courteous well-educated manners before openly asking question which are asked in a freindly manner and for no personal gain and who will always do whatever is necessary to aid you in any possible way.[/QUOTE] It's more than a smattering and is across all classes.India isn't for everyone,but to lay the blame on a great nation for this seems a tad insightless.Reserve your judgement until after you've been back in the UK for while or even forget the judgemental attitude altogether and save up for a Club Med holiday next time.

Mar 19th, 2005, 16:30	#140
cyberhippie Account Closed by User's Request Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 6,012	I ain't going to Europe again!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah shite I live there, oh well "what to do!"

Mar 20th, 2005, 06:39	#142
randomviolins Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New York Posts: 113	Amogassidhi, Methinks ye needs a chill pill, mate. India really isn't so awful. You've just had a few bad experiences, and maybe your expectations were unrealistically high. I don't think anyone will deny that corruption and greed are rampant in India. (While I in India 2 weeks ago, an Indian undercover tv news team caught on camera 82 workers at the Delhi sales tax office taking bribes. Can you imagine it? Not 1, not 2, not 10 -- literally 82!). But these vices are rampant in most parts of the world, including the UK. And the corrupt, greedy, and desperate will use religion if it will help them make a buck just as surely as they will use any other tool at their disposal. Certainly in our own neck of the woods (UK and USA) there are all sorts of "folks" engaging in violent and avaricious acts on massive scales in the name of "God." That said, I do understand your frustration. Lately, I have been strongly considering leaving my current city (New York) because the people here can sometimes be so cold and mean, compared to where I grew up in the Midwest USA. Yet by the end of my recent trip to India, I was whistling "There's No Place like Home" as I arrived back in New York. I had been in India less than 12 hours during this most recent trip when I had been taken advantage of by 3 people in a row (the pre-paid taxi service agent who charged me 450 rupees but deliberately wrote on the receipt that I had only paid 445 rupees; the taxi driver who took me to the wrong hotel, apparently to get some kind of kickback from the hotel proprietor; and the counterman at a juice shop who gave me only 5 rupees change when I paid for a 30-rupees juice with a 50-rupees note). None of these acts did me any real harm (considering that a taxi from my home in Manhattan to JFK airport only a few miles away costs around USD$50, I can certainly afford missing 25 rupees). But experiences like this can really wear down one's soul. In fact, if I were to dwell on all the unpleasant experiences I had in India, I would never, ever go back. And I would go out of my way to keep everyone I know from going there. But despite the annoyances, it's still an amazing place. And it's a place filled with wonderful, friendly people. *It helps to have some friends there that you can hang out with.* If you go alone and are entering each place you go as a complete stranger, it can be really hard. It's human nature to be more reserved and less accommodating when dealing with strangers. When you have friends in a foreign place to guide you, and commiserate with you, it puts things in a whole different light.

Mar 20th, 2005, 08:26	#143
Ikuru the only "end" is "you" Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: infront of the screen Posts: 1,913	I would give allot to be in India right now, anywhere in India really.... So India is tough on you? Get in to it, deal with it Let go and Love it. It´s allot like an acid trip really, you can see the bad one comming but you dont let that emotion sink your ship.. You let go and it absorbs you and then you start to flow and that is when you blend in with the journy and the Expirience start Going.... After that you just row your boar gently down the stream and over the rainbow. Tune in, be a Cat and Digg! Flowers in the air.

Mar 20th, 2005, 09:45	#144
goatfarmer goaty member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Thailand Posts: 62	Hey Random, Wherever you go, you have to learn who to trust and who is trying to rip you off. India is just another variation on that theme. I'm sure you can get your violin around that one!

Mar 20th, 2005, 09:52	#145
goatfarmer goaty member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Thailand Posts: 62	Wow, Just read the Amog diatribe. Amazing he lasted six weeks. Does tend to suggest, the older you are, the harder it is to appreciate India for the first time.

Mar 20th, 2005, 14:41	#147
cyberhippie Account Closed by User's Request Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 6,012	Amogassidhi There's an easy answer to all this stop bitchin and go home!! Your inability to deal with all that India has thrown at you is also to do with you as a person it happens to many. he stupid thiing is to stay and blame a nation for how your feelng, just catch the next plane and put it down to experience!! nobody will think the worse of of you for doing this. Travel anywhere should be an enjoyable experience not a penance for right of passage. Find somewhere that suits you and go with that!! India isn't going to change for you or anyone else if you can't wade through the S#*t to get to the wonderful experience that India provides for many, it's time to look for your particular "place" and enjoy it to the full!! Believe me I''ve seen this to many times to relate, the situation won't get better only your resentmment will grow and you'll hate every waking day!! Happy Traveling!

Mar 20th, 2005, 20:27	#150
randomviolins Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New York Posts: 113	My feelings exactly, Ikaru. A real poet. I have posted elsewhere on the site about a wonderful experience I recently had in a budget hotel in South Kerala, but I think it bears repeating here. I unwittingly left my passport and a wallet filled with US 20-dollar bills and rupees on the bed of my hotel under a blanket or sheet. When I returned to the room late in the day, the bed had been neatly made and the wallet and passport left on the nightstand. Nothing had been taken. That might very well NOT have been the case at a hotel here in my own country or many other places I have traveled over the years.

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