how to handle touts?

aesood

Well I am home now and I miss the touts. Canada feels empty. Anyway there was one point in Jaipur where we were suddenly surrounded by five different guys all trying to sell us puppets. Puppets? I thought it was funny for awhile, and they followed us selling puppets but then I got kind of annoyed and I said, 'What is WITH the puppets! I don't want any puppets! I had enough now everybody go away!' And they stopped and said, 'Go away?' And I said, 'Yes! Go away!' And they did.

emjoi

I've found that if they aren't in "robot mode" (That creepy unthinking mode where they seem to have no life other than selling their stuff) I could occasionally talk to them in a friendly manner... "I know you have to try and sell to me, but really, I'm not going to buy it no matter what the price is. I just don't want it." And if it's done right, it can end in a smile and even a small conversation.

But if you've made the mistake and looked at their goods for a second, and they have become "Terminators" with you as their target, you can only walk fast, refuse to look their way, refuse to say anything.

sirensongs

You miss them? Great! Let's ship them ALL over to Canada and see how long before they're locked up as a public nuisance! We'll be doing a public service by ridding the streets of them!

Necessary evil, my a**. No other place seems to find them "necessary."

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sirensongs

Quote:
ACKshully, being a nuisance is indeed a criminal act - in other countries.
--Good point, that. In other countries.

A constructive question to ask at this point is whether we think India can, or should, change in order to improve certain things. I think the answer is yes. It doesn't seem to be a crime here to put your child to work in hard labour or any number of other reprehensible things, are you defending those too because they are "Indian"?

Quote:
It says a lot about Indian society that harassment is not considered a crime.
--Another good point. makes you look completely logical making this line of reasoning. First equating that with harassment and then tarring a whole bunch of people.

I look logical because I am logical. Yes, it IS harassment; look up the definition of nuisance and harassment in a dictionary. I don't need to tar the people, they are doing a pretty good job of tarring themselves by tolerating such things. And not only tolerating, but in your case, defending such practices.

Since you are not "foren" you will never know just how harassing it really is, because you will not experience the worst of it. You can stand at the bus stand in Mahabalipuram and watch the swarms of hawkers literally descend on the poor feckless whities in shorts and backpacks, leaving the Indian tourists untouched. These people are not offering services, they are harassing. If they were content to merely offer a service, they could stand by the roadside with their wares - not surround the newcomers in a horde.


Quote:
If it were made criminal here, it would certainly clear a lot of street traffic.
--True. but then you wouldn't be in India, would you?

Sure I would be. I would be in an India that is more liveable for everyone. Who says India has to be a crappy (sometimes literally) place? It would still be India without harassment - just a lot nicer. Sort of like saying "gee, if we clean up all the air pollution that is killing people it won't be India anymore!" "Without all the feces on the street it just wouldn't be India so quit complaining!"

Quote:
In terms of the "chances of my giving" to hard-working people, the less commission money that's wasted on touts, the more I have to spend in the hotel restaurant, tipping bellboys, waiters and drivers, etc - which I do regularly, because they earn it. If you are too cheap to tip working people, speak for yourself.
--What I wrote earlier implied that touts were a necessary evil. AND It's true, I dont tip people, (even a quadriplegic)

In what way are they necessary? What service do they provide that anyone can't do themselves? If they are so necessary to the world why do other places not have them? If they are a necessity, why have I managed so far without them?

You seem to be confusing Tipping with giving handouts to beggars. A tip is a gratuity that is EARNED by a worker. A handout is a donation to a beggar. One is earned for good service, the other is not. I also don't give to beggars because I believe it supports a number of unhealthy causes. Tipping is a completely different matter.

The less money shaved off by leeches like touts, the more I have to give people who deserve a tip - and unlike yourself I am glad to be generous to worthy workers. Waiters, bellboys, a guy peddling a cycle rick in the sun, attentive desk clerks, good auto drivers and other people who don't need to descend into harassment or begging to make a living.

Happy Republic Day!

Digital Drifter

ACKshully, being a nuisance is indeed a criminal act - in other countries.
--Good point, that. In other countries. [/i]

A constructive question to ask at this point is whether we think India can, or should, change in order to improve certain things. I think the answer is yes.


Oh, my. Here we start, go on, We're listening....wait I'm all ears. That was like, so brilliant and charitable of you.


It doesn't seem to be a crime here to put your child to work in hard labour or any number of other reprehensible things, are you defending those too because they are "Indian"?

It doesn't seem? In what world? Seen this?? Bombay Prevention of Begging Act, 1959! each State's got one,OK? Defending it, my A**.
The Law says, Kids go to school till 14, no child labour etc., OK? That WAS a step in the right direction. & any number of laws outlawing reprehensible acts. To what effect? Nil. OK? Now, your point was?


Quote:
It says a lot about Indian society that harassment is not considered a crime.
--Another good point. makes you look completely logical making this line of reasoning. First equating that with harassment and then tarring a whole bunch of people.

I look logical because I am logical. Yes, it IS harassment; look up the definition of nuisance and harassment in a dictionary. I don't need to tar the people, they are doing a pretty good job of tarring themselves by tolerating such things. And not only tolerating, but in your case, defending such practices.


Yes, I can see you being logical. & oh yes, we tolerate a lot whether good or bad, that's how things are here. Loud music past 10pm?, we do.(there's a law for that too). Flouting traffic rules, we do(there's a law for that too). Poor civic sense,we do(no law for that)


Since you are not "foren" you will never know just how harassing it really is, because you will not experience the worst of it.

Point well and truly made.

You can stand at the bus stand in Mahabalipuram and watch the swarms of hawkers literally descend on the poor feckless whities in shorts and backpacks, leaving the Indian tourists untouched. These people are not offering services, they are harassing. If they were content to merely offer a service, they could stand by the roadside with their wares - not surround the newcomers in a horde.



Which is what I was trying to explain to you patiently. You Logically
are able to work out whom to tip(which was not my point anyway), the touts
are doing it in the way 70s explain and I did in my first post. That seems to be the only way they seem to know to sell.

& where ever you come from, it may be harassment but it's not considered here. & it's pretty condescending for you to preach when you don't have a clue why things happen the way they happen.

See, logically, business should have asymptotically tailed for obnoxious behaviour for these touts but they continue to do it. So

a) it works
b) works but they dont care and follow PT Barnum 'A sucker born...'
c) actually in a death spiral and so are more and more despo

Quote:
If it were made criminal here, it would certainly clear a lot of street traffic.
--True. but then you wouldn't be in India, would you?[/i]

Sure I would be. I would be in an India that is more liveable for everyone. Who says India has to be a crappy (sometimes literally) place? It would still be India without harassment - just a lot nicer. Sort of like saying "gee, if we clean up all the air pollution that is killing people it won't be India anymore!" "Without all the feces on the street it just wouldn't be India so quit complaining!"

One can always dream.


Quote:
In terms of the "chances of my giving" to hard-working people, the less commission money that's wasted on touts, the more I have to spend in the hotel restaurant, tipping bellboys, waiters and drivers, etc - which I do regularly, because they earn it. If you are too cheap to tip working people, speak for yourself.
--What I wrote earlier implied that touts were a necessary evil. AND It's true, I dont tip people, (even a quadriplegic)

In what way are they necessary? What service do they provide that anyone can't do themselves? If they are so necessary to the world why do other places not have them? If they are a necessity, why have I managed so far without them?


I cannot speak for other places as to why they dont have them. Semantically, a tout is no different from a Hertz counter(or other services counter), only less professional and has no counter,shop, no id, not smartly dressed etc. Looks, m'am, looks. Yuo already made up your mind.

As to why you managed, as you said, you're logical.

You seem to be confusing Tipping with giving handouts to beggars.

No, No, I was just trying to show I have no heart, just granite where my heart is

The less money shaved off by leeches like touts, the more I have to give people who deserve a tip - and unlike yourself I am glad to be generous to worthy workers. Waiters, bellboys, a guy peddling a cycle rick in the sun, attentive desk clerks, good auto drivers and other people who don't need to descend into harassment or begging to make a living.

m'am. let me spell it out again. A tout makes money being an intermediary. I paid Rs 4000 to get a rented house in Bangalore. Now, the 'real estate agent' was the milkman. sit back and think about that. Now work out why it happens in tourist places. A kanchipuram silk saree weaver would starve to death if there were no touts; whether big or small. As it is, he's in a sort of bonded labour situation.


Man, I feel like a tout now

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Sama

hey, wait a minute! I may be white but I don't wear shorts with white socks and sandals!

The touts at Mahabalipuram were absolutely relentless and they even hassled my native Tamil companion (maybe because she was with a white gal?). They would try talking to her and she told me that one said, "what's wrong with you, tell your friend to buy from us."

when people don't take the THIRD (or 4th, or 5th, or 6th) NO! for an answer, yeah, that IS harrassment.

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sirensongs

My point was: the laws are a start, but until enforced, are just window dressing. If child labour is no longer a problem, why did I buy a notebook from a bunch of kids, dutifully pasting and cutting, who do not attend school and were working all day yesterday (on Rep. Day no less)? The adult with them didn't do a lick of work, just sat on his fat butt and watched them.

When there are laws, and the laws are not enforced and everyone (99percent) turn a blind eye, that is tolerance. And I didn't say you were defending child labour, I said you were defending touts, which you are.

Exactly, as you say, the difference between a tout and a legitimate salesman is a counter and a storefront. That makes a big difference. People in a storefront don't generally follow you down the street, block your access to places other than theirs and refuse to take no for an answer. Harassment is not salesmanship and is not a legitimate job.

& where ever you come from, it may be harassment but it's not considered here. & it's pretty condescending for you to preach when you don't have a clue why things happen the way they happen.

You are making my point for me. What does it say about the place if this is not considered harassment? That this society condones harassment?

In fact, I am pretty sure it is considered harassment, and is not legal - viz. the fact that the Tourist Police will shoo the guys away if asked to.

I can also answer why they don't have them in other places -
because 1-they are not necessary and provide no service, and 2-in other places harassment is not tolerated.

I do have a clue as to why it happens - people need money. That doesn't make it, or any number of other reprehensible practices, okay.

Why would Kancheepuram weavers starve without touts? You don't think the saris are beautiful enough to sell without harassment? I've bought several of them and none were from touts. All the people filing in and out of Nalli Silks all day are buying these saris- not from touts.

Your milkman provided a service, he did not follow you down the street and harass you to take your apartment. Just guessing, of course. That is the difference between a real estate agent, and a street tout. Service vs. harassment.

Yes, you are defending them - again, look it up ("defense"). You are justifying their existence and saying they provide a service; that sounds like a defense to me. No wonder you feel like a tout - you are, in fact, touting touts!

Fortunately, all your countrymen do not share your pessismistic view - that a better India is just a "dream." All the reformer laws (child labour, anti dowry, etc) were passed by people who were willing to at least attempt to tackle problems, not just sit back and say "this is India, get over it."

sirensongs

[quote=aesood]Well I am home now and I miss the touts. Canada feels empty. QUOTE]

Because Canada IS empty!

emjoi

Touts, and general high pressure salesmenship, as has been said long ago is just anti-productive. It scares the buyers away. People wont go visit the Taj entirely because of the touts. Lonely Planet puts a big boxed warning about them in it's book.

I know personally, I would have bought far more stuff in India if the buggers just backed off a bit. In Australia, I don't ever buy from phone sales, or guys at the front door or any saleman who high-pressures me. And I took the same principle to India.

aesood

[quote=sirensongs]Relatively speaking, it certainly is! I have come home from India with a whole new sense of 'personal space' - and right now it's way too much! I'm sure I'll be thankful for it soon.....and maybe crowded malls at Christmas won't bug me so much anymore.

Frangipani

The only places i dont bother to 'donate' to 'beggars' are those countries that have social security. On the streets of Melbourne city you see professional 'beggars' harrassing drivers at the traffic lights, down the Mall, etc etc. Hidden cameras have shown these geezers headed for the casino, pub etc after a good day's takings.

Elsewhere esp in India I go with the flow - its is no hassle for me to hand out a few rupees each day. In fact I have a quota for donating each day whenever I am in India - (a lot less than tipping the hairdresser, waitress or cab driver for good service - which I do regularly without questioning or calculating when I am in a western city)

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Frangipani

I have to share this with you.
When I was last in Kovalam, Kerala 3 months ago, I saw a very weathered French women (practically in rags) begging along the beach area. She was very embarrased and would queitly ask for 10 rupees whenever a tourist passed by.

It was heartening to see the locals giving her money. When I asked the Indians why they were giving money to a foreigner - their reply was it is hard enough for an Indian to beg, but it must be harder for a foreigner in India to be doing this - whatever the reasons that got her into this situation.

Lets not be quick to judge anyone.

seventies'hippy

Your hairdresser, waitress & cab driver have done you a service, if it was good then by all means tip.
Beggers have not done you a service, they are begging, giving them encourages them, and others to join their ranks. That is not good for them or anyone else.
If you want to give, give to an orphanage or similar organisation, the money will be put to a far more constructive use,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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Aspen

From my experience.

The touts in Japur, Agra and New Delhi were fiercely agressive and persistent and did not seem to take "no" for an answer. That 5 or 6 guys followed me all the way to my van.

Those in Kashmir were so very polite! They started by telling me "You don't have to buy, just take a look". I did and said "no". They persisted and slashed their prices but I still said "no". Then they took a last look at me and said "OK. Friendship is more important. Shall I go now"? To which I gave a big smile and gladly said "Yes, please!"

But the most unforgettable incident came when I was riding the shikara on Lake Dal and these guys rowed by to sell us some gems quoted in USD. That was my last day in Srinagar and I was dead broke so I thought telling them the truth would drive them away. "Sorry, no more cash. Spent all already". Quickly came the reply "But Ma'am, surely you got credit card?" I didn't know they came equipped with their magnetic card terminals on their shikaras!

Frangipani

Aspen - I was spared the agression in Kashmir - as I was on an official visit. But I know a Malaysian couple would were kidnapped and held in a houseboat in Srinagar until they bought a carpet or something.
Total put off. Shame 'cos I thought Kashmir was one of the most beautiful places in world. That was 25 years ago - I am sure a lot has changed since.