how to handle touts?

Nick-H · Jan 30th, 2006, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by yogagal60510

The touts at Mahabalipuram were absolutely relentless and they even hassled my native Tamil companion (maybe because she was with a white gal?). They would try talking to her and she told me that one said, "what's wrong with you, tell your friend to buy from us."

Yes, I get this with Sushi. They seem to think that because she is Indian that she should be 'on their side' --- 'please, madam, make him buy just one...'

Oh! My wife was your companion that day. Maybe it's just her then!

But I find that "I don't want", spoken with no eye contact and moving gently on (or if you are standing, look away or turn your back), is effective in this part of the world. I don't think I'm anywhere near ready for the touts of Varanasi or Agra!

Frangipani: IMer DrFunkenstien has described recently (in his blog, I think) how his idylic Kashmiri houseboat became quite the opposite when, after the first couple of days, they would not take him off the boat without selling him stuff.

Aspen · Jan 30th, 2006, 13:54

Frangi : If I were to be kidnapped or held back at one of those houseboats in Srinagar, I would probably just part with my money and get some stuff than risk escaping by swimming across and choking on all those I-don't-know-what stuff floating along Dal lake!

Apart from such possibly unpleasant or even intimidating encounters, I personally find dealing with the touts during my stay at the kashmiri houseboat one of the highlights of my visit last month. Coming from a country where open touting is illegal, I could never imagine my friends and I bringing down the price for a collection of stuff from 2530 Rs to less than 900 Rs!

Not a bad way to idle away our time while stuck on the boat!

Frangipani · Feb 1st, 2006, 13:32

Agree totally! I think these people were so baffled - 'cos several houseboat owners laid claim on the couple and it went on and on for afew days apparently. While I loved Kashmir for its beauty and the people are handsome too - their aggressive nature is a put off.
I found lake Nagin to be more of a paradise than Dal.

rangers · Feb 1st, 2006, 14:07

The mistake can be..while u keep on tracing touts and handling them..u may miss out nice freinds on ur journey..fine balance can help..some tourist are really rude to nice persons coz they were touted before..so carry a smile and use ur 3rd eyes..enjoy the miles of smiles

mridula · Feb 3rd, 2006, 13:02

I enjoyed this thread so much. And there is so much creativity on offer here! I have made small post on my blog about this thread and have used some of the quotes giving proper references. I hope there is no problem with it?

sirensongs · Feb 7th, 2006, 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frangipani

The only places i dont bother to 'donate' to 'beggars' are those countries that have social security. ....
Elsewhere esp in India I go with the flow - its is no hassle for me to hand out a few rupees each day. In fact I have a quota for donating each day whenever I am in India - (a lot less than tipping the hairdresser, waitress or cab driver for good service - which I do regularly without questioning or calculating when I am in a western city)

You don't feel that by doing so, you are supporting the organized crime rackets that control the majority of these beggars?

I agree that there are probably independents, like the lone old woman with her walking stick, that aren't controlled by the begging-bosses. I won't give to the others because I feel it's supporting a human rights abuse (these unforutnates are basically captives of the beggar bosses).

Nick-H · Feb 7th, 2006, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

You don't feel that by doing so, you are supporting the organized crime rackets that control the majority of these beggars?

Sirensongs, your experience and knowledge of India is vastly more than mine, so I hesitate to say (but will anyway

)....

I can well believe that the beggars that frequent the major tourist and shopping places belong to such gangs. However I think it is much less likely to be the case off the tourist path and in more residential areas.

I don't approve of "using" young children to beg. But when a familly is living on the pavement, I will not penalise them for this if they send a small child to run after me.

I don't set out to give my money away each day (I have to eat too and I am not at all rich). But if I have change in my pocket I will give some until it is gone. Occasionally I will cross the road to give: usually for an old person who is asking in vain from everybody.

sirensongs · Feb 7th, 2006, 11:07

i agree about the residential vs. tourist areas - there are neighborhood, unaligned beggars in most indian nabes - usually old or mentally ill people. it's different to give to them, IMHO.

i wouldn't personally give to any kid whose family sent them running after me because I think it's shameful that they are teaching the kid to do this, and the only way to stop them is just not to give anything. it bothers me greatly that either way, the kid loses - if he doesn't get a rupee from me he might get smacked.
Now we belong on the 'how do you deal with begging' thread....

jivan · Feb 20th, 2006, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jennifericous

well vera, you shouldn't feel intimidated. for a start your bound to be bigger, taller and stronger than most of the indian men!
I found that travelling with a man, and i handling all the finances. indian men were reluctant to do business with me. i think they were surprised to see a woman handling the business and the money. but i guess on your own it would be pretty obvious that you'll be doing all the talking. and they appreciate banter and a sense of humour. it works much better i found than trying the hard nosed approach!

First of all it was a delight to read all of the comments above. Have seen almost all the shades between westerners & indians (touts or not it's nothing different). The issue is if u can play with them or not. For most it's just give & take. If u can go beyond & have a real conversation they don't mean anything. They can even give good suggestions. If one does get any remember to say 'Thanx' that is good.

Jennifer: AFA whatever little business I had to do with women, more than anything else I've to be cautious because I'm dealing with a woman so can't play the pal bit as we can with the guys. So it's not easy to deal with. Even if one is good friends then hugging the opposite sex is watched like a hawk. Hence guys as general don't want to display any emotions. At the same time they can't afford to show a weakness to the others. Hence the discomfort you see. You'll find a very different person if he's a metrosexual male, in a coffee joing discussing selling a bike,stereo or even a computer. Then it's more to do with hard facts, logic & just enjoying the place. So things are different at different places with different people. I hope answered u'r query

jivan · Feb 20th, 2006, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

I do think there's something wrong with it. All jobs are not legitimate (mafia, protection rackets, etc are also "jobs"). They are scam artists. The relatively honest people running the hotels and so on are also trying to make a living, as am I, and I would prefer to give my money to people who are actually working, not the middlemen.

There is merit in u'r argument but not enough. It's very 1-2-1 affair so making a general sweep isn't good. I've had good as well as not so good experiences but each has taught me something or the other. For e.g. I would rather go with a fat tout rather than a scrawy one (I'm also fat) so we know each other as well & can expect each other to be reasonable. He is also useful as he's the first person who can show u the city so u know some of the good as well as bad things of the city. Usually have a map of the place/city in general as well as where I wanna go. If they see me prepared then they don't play. Also do carry very light. Only one backpack & one sleeping bag so they know I can use the public transport. (This might/might not work with couples) so it can be a pleasent experience. Getting cheated (in the range by Rs. 50) is something to be accepted the first time u're in the city. when u're in the city for couple of days u come to know of all the prices.

jivan · Feb 20th, 2006, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

ACKshully, being a nuisance is indeed a criminal act - in other countries. Their persistence has another name - harassment!

It says a lot about Indian society that harassment is not considered a crime.
If it were made criminal here, it would certainly clear a lot of street traffic.

In terms of the "chances of my giving" to hard-working people, the less commission money that's wasted on touts, the more I have to spend in the hotel restaurant, tipping bellboys, waiters and drivers, etc - which I do regularly, because they earn it. If you are too cheap to tip working people, speak for yourself.

again here would like to engage. The west has a very fixed idea about 'harrasment' here it would be the daily thing between a 'mother-in-law & a daughter-in-law'. When one is in 100 million people country with almost 70% illiterate then it's hard to tell the other guy is rotten or something. Sending people jails is not the right thing atleast in my book. They're our teachers as much as anybody else. We're all here to learn frome each other.

Nick-H · Feb 20th, 2006, 14:54

The West does not have a very fixed idea about harrasment at all. It has ideas which are young and evolving. It is relatively recently that sexual harrasment in the workplace has ben outlawed (not been stopped, but at least it is now against the law). It is within the last two or three decades only that our UK police have considered violence in the home to be anything other than a private matter.

Perhaps you have some fixed ideas about Western ideas?

I don't have the equivalent knowledge of India, but I know that it is possible for the sort of harrasment that leads to the death of wives and daughters-in-law killing themselves to result in husbands and mothers-in-law being led away by police; perhaps that wouldn't have happened a generation ago.

So the cultural backgrounds are different. One thing that is certainly true is that different people the world over have different ideas about what privacy and personal space mean. But harassment is harassment, and I don't think there is any real difference in our views of it.

So far as harassment from touts is concerned, ask would they do this to local Indians, and would it be put up with?

jivan · Feb 20th, 2006, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

My point was: the laws are a start, but until enforced, are just window dressing. If child labour is no longer a problem, why did I buy a notebook from a bunch of kids, dutifully pasting and cutting, who do not attend school and were working all day yesterday (on Rep. Day no less)? The adult with them didn't do a lick of work, just sat on his fat butt and watched them.

I agree with u, the real issue here is implementation & corruption. There has been a mid-day meal programme for govt. schools & reportedly children attending the schools are higher. But then there 've been also reports of children dying/falling ill due to the mid-day meal. Also one can't rely on the govt. reports as most of the time they tend to be rosy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

When there are laws, and the laws are not enforced and everyone (99percent) turn a blind eye, that is tolerance. And I didn't say you were defending child labour, I said you were defending touts, which you are.

Exactly, as you say, the difference between a tout and a legitimate salesman is a counter and a storefront. That makes a big difference. People in a storefront don't generally follow you down the street, block your access to places other than theirs and refuse to take no for an answer. Harassment is not salesmanship and is not a legitimate job.

& where ever you come from, it may be harassment but it's not considered here. & it's pretty condescending for you to preach when you don't have a clue why things happen the way they happen.

You are making my point for me. What does it say about the place if this is not considered harassment? That this society condones harassment?

In fact, I am pretty sure it is considered harassment, and is not legal - viz. the fact that the Tourist Police will shoo the guys away if asked to.

While parts being true I'm confused about the legitimacy part here. The tourist police will shoo the guys away to show u that they mean business but will later have a smoke or drink with them. It's part of an ecology, system don't know from when on. The police have their own different psyche so it's the best if we don't bring them in the discussion. I've seen/heard enough cruelty done by the police in the name of removing harrasment. Have a visit to boy's remand home & u'll come to know.
Just a tip of the iceberg. Do u know tht the tourist police pays the
highest bribe to have postings in the tourist places & I don't need u to tell from whom they extract/exploit the money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

I can also answer why they don't have them in other places -
because 1-they are not necessary and provide no service, and 2-in other places harassment is not tolerated.

I don't know in other countries but from whatever I've seen/heard/read there is a class issue there. For e.g. in America there are places full of American African low-earning people which are not looked at well by the Conservative white American. Of course this could be a popular view/illusion but it could be a reality.
See the definition of harrasment is not universal, it's very subjective. Loud music after 10 p.m. is that harrasment or not. The Israeli's enjoy/revel in that & I can understand that but don't necessarily wanna be in that place. Some touts have helped me immensely for knowing things which otherwise I wouldn't have come to know otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

I do have a clue as to why it happens - people need money. That doesn't make it, or any number of other reprehensible practices, okay.

point well taken. the root if u go are 2 simple things - illiteracy & herd mentality. Not many people have skills or the means/motivation to develop them. I hope things improve for all of us but can't share the optimism with u.

jivan · Feb 20th, 2006, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

The West does not have a very fixed idea about harrasment at all. It has ideas which are young and evolving. It is relatively recently that sexual harrasment in the workplace has ben outlawed (not been stopped, but at least it is now against the law). It is within the last two or three decades only that our UK police have considered violence in the home to be anything other than a private matter.

Perhaps you have some fixed ideas about Western ideas?

Yes, the possibility that I might have fixed ideas. I know only from whatever u guys/girls are experiencing as well as little of my own. Violence in home is still a very private matter here in India. There 've been only handful of cases where a women/girl-child has talked about harrasment (sexual or otherwise) & then there are issues with their marriage (they don't find good boys usually). Even the role models the women base on are mostly masculine in nature. Women who had entered the male bastion/domain & made the most of it. Now I don't know whether that is the correct role model as I'm not a women.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

I don't have the equivalent knowledge of India, but I know that it is possible for the sort of harrasment that leads to the death of wives and daughters-in-law killing themselves to result in husbands and mothers-in-law being led away by police; perhaps that wouldn't have happened a generation ago.

Ummm.... There are 2 parts of this.There is one where the daughter-in-law has died due to dowry or something similar but there has also been a reversal trend where the daughter-in-law has used the law to harass the husband/in-laws or both. In the end it's a power thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

So the cultural backgrounds are different. One thing that is certainly true is that different people the world over have different ideas about what privacy and personal space mean. But harassment is harassment, and I don't think there is any real difference in our views of it.

So far as harassment from touts is concerned, ask would they do this to local Indians, and would it be put up with?

No, we do get harassed. More often it's the families who get harrassed more rather than single guys like me. I escape when visiting a new place by wearing a slightly old t-shirt & scrached jeans or something. Something off-track but not too off-track to attract attention. The big-shots don't have to put up with anything, armed with a mobile phone & all but the middle-class family man is very tactful in dealing with the touts. More often than not a friendly biri/cigarette to with one of the touts is easy to disperse the crowd.
With the whole white skin as well as European women thing (although I've seen enough European/American women who can shame me easily with strength/speed) it brings (animalistic) dimensions which I still don't know how to put in. Is it the testorome or something different but yet still find them loving.

jivan · Feb 27th, 2006, 16:03

After reading so many posts regarding touts/guides etc. felt like sharing two stories/incidences one a sad one the other a glad one.
This happened to an acquaintance/friend of mine. He's a local estate agent/guide/tout all rolled into one. He doesn't go running but sits in his place in a restaurant (German Bakery) where people come. More often than not somebody recommends him & then he talks with foreigners/guests/visitors & shows them around & gets his commision after the person has got it. Usually it's a very straightforward affair as he's well-connected & knows almost everybody around. So this one time there was this guy (foreigner) who had come & wanted a place. After knowing the budget & all my friend took him to 2-3 places which were within the budget but this guy apparently didn't like it. So they said good-byes to each other & moved on. Couple of days later while showing some other tourist/visitor he came to know that the same guy had talked with the landlord & taken the flat. Now what should my friend/acquaintence should 've done? Should he have fought with the guy or what? If he had asked for some money at the beginning to cover his expenses what should it have been? Here clearly the visitor/guest/foreigner is in bad light.
Now for the good one. This happened with me about 10-12 yrs. back. It was my F.Y. or S.Y. studying college & sometimes used to bunk college & come to Koregaon Park, German Bakery to oogle at some of the lovely ladies/women around. Would be around 16-17 yrs. old at that time. Had gone through some unpleasant gay attention so there were confusing times. At that point had just started becoming a regular so knew some people around. This might be 4-5ish in the evening. An elderly gentlemen came to our circle & started chatting with some of the elderly people which were with us. Apparently he had come to Pune for a very short while & wanted somebody who could show him the city. As some of my friends felt I had a good command over language & knew the city my name was recommended. Although I was a little nervous as I didn't know was this just a sight-seeing tour that he wanted or something more? Also didn't know what to charge him? So after hesitating for a while said something like Rs. 300/- which was quite enough in those days for a young college kid. He instantly agreed & asked me to do all the needful to hire a car etc. I said let's meet tomorrow morning at such & such time & let's see. Anyway to cut the long story short we met the next day had a whale of time, he also wanted to shop so took him to quite a few shops, had lunch with him in a traditional maharashtrian place & actually was emberassed to ask for money as he had treated me quite nicely. But the gentleman paid his dues & asked for my postal address. Although was hesitant did give him. After 2-3 months I recieved a nice package which had an expensive-looking english tourist book describing his country (I think it was Iran) with a note attached which had his address & an invite to his place whenever I'm in the county can stay at his place for some period of time. I was touched by his sentiment.
So in short things can swing in either way.

Feb 1st, 2006, 13:32	#138
Frangipani Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kerala Posts: 26	Agree totally! I think these people were so baffled - 'cos several houseboat owners laid claim on the couple and it went on and on for afew days apparently. While I loved Kashmir for its beauty and the people are handsome too - their aggressive nature is a put off. I found lake Nagin to be more of a paradise than Dal. __________________ "You must tremble with anger and indignation whenever you see acts of injustice"- Che Guevara

Feb 3rd, 2006, 13:02	#140
mridula Sair Kar Duniya Ki Galib , Jindagani Fir Kahan ... Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 1,281	I enjoyed this thread so much. And there is so much creativity on offer here! I have made small post on my blog about this thread and have used some of the quotes giving proper references. I hope there is no problem with it? __________________ mridula http://www.gonomad.com/traveltalesfromindia/

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Jan 30th, 2006, 13:54	#137
Aspen Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 25	Frangi : If I were to be kidnapped or held back at one of those houseboats in Srinagar, I would probably just part with my money and get some stuff than risk escaping by swimming across and choking on all those I-don't-know-what stuff floating along Dal lake! Apart from such possibly unpleasant or even intimidating encounters, I personally find dealing with the touts during my stay at the kashmiri houseboat one of the highlights of my visit last month. Coming from a country where open touting is illegal, I could never imagine my friends and I bringing down the price for a collection of stuff from 2530 Rs to less than 900 Rs! Not a bad way to idle away our time while stuck on the boat!

Feb 1st, 2006, 14:07	#139
rangers Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: India Posts: 450	The mistake can be..while u keep on tracing touts and handling them..u may miss out nice freinds on ur journey..fine balance can help..some tourist are really rude to nice persons coz they were touted before..so carry a smile and use ur 3rd eyes..enjoy the miles of smiles

Feb 7th, 2006, 11:07	#143
sirensongs Eeny meeny mango Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: All India Permit (somewhere between Delhi & Dharamsala) Posts: 1,213	i agree about the residential vs. tourist areas - there are neighborhood, unaligned beggars in most indian nabes - usually old or mentally ill people. it's different to give to them, IMHO. i wouldn't personally give to any kid whose family sent them running after me because I think it's shameful that they are teaching the kid to do this, and the only way to stop them is just not to give anything. it bothers me greatly that either way, the kid loses - if he doesn't get a rupee from me he might get smacked. Now we belong on the 'how do you deal with begging' thread....

Feb 20th, 2006, 14:54	#147
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,866	The West does not have a very fixed idea about harrasment at all. It has ideas which are young and evolving. It is relatively recently that sexual harrasment in the workplace has ben outlawed (not been stopped, but at least it is now against the law). It is within the last two or three decades only that our UK police have considered violence in the home to be anything other than a private matter. Perhaps you have some fixed ideas about Western ideas? I don't have the equivalent knowledge of India, but I know that it is possible for the sort of harrasment that leads to the death of wives and daughters-in-law killing themselves to result in husbands and mothers-in-law being led away by police; perhaps that wouldn't have happened a generation ago. So the cultural backgrounds are different. One thing that is certainly true is that different people the world over have different ideas about what privacy and personal space mean. But harassment is harassment, and I don't think there is any real difference in our views of it. So far as harassment from touts is concerned, ask would they do this to local Indians, and would it be put up with?

Feb 27th, 2006, 16:03	#150
jivan Maha Guru Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 829	After reading so many posts regarding touts/guides etc. felt like sharing two stories/incidences one a sad one the other a glad one. This happened to an acquaintance/friend of mine. He's a local estate agent/guide/tout all rolled into one. He doesn't go running but sits in his place in a restaurant (German Bakery) where people come. More often than not somebody recommends him & then he talks with foreigners/guests/visitors & shows them around & gets his commision after the person has got it. Usually it's a very straightforward affair as he's well-connected & knows almost everybody around. So this one time there was this guy (foreigner) who had come & wanted a place. After knowing the budget & all my friend took him to 2-3 places which were within the budget but this guy apparently didn't like it. So they said good-byes to each other & moved on. Couple of days later while showing some other tourist/visitor he came to know that the same guy had talked with the landlord & taken the flat. Now what should my friend/acquaintence should 've done? Should he have fought with the guy or what? If he had asked for some money at the beginning to cover his expenses what should it have been? Here clearly the visitor/guest/foreigner is in bad light. Now for the good one. This happened with me about 10-12 yrs. back. It was my F.Y. or S.Y. studying college & sometimes used to bunk college & come to Koregaon Park, German Bakery to oogle at some of the lovely ladies/women around. Would be around 16-17 yrs. old at that time. Had gone through some unpleasant gay attention so there were confusing times. At that point had just started becoming a regular so knew some people around. This might be 4-5ish in the evening. An elderly gentlemen came to our circle & started chatting with some of the elderly people which were with us. Apparently he had come to Pune for a very short while & wanted somebody who could show him the city. As some of my friends felt I had a good command over language & knew the city my name was recommended. Although I was a little nervous as I didn't know was this just a sight-seeing tour that he wanted or something more? Also didn't know what to charge him? So after hesitating for a while said something like Rs. 300/- which was quite enough in those days for a young college kid. He instantly agreed & asked me to do all the needful to hire a car etc. I said let's meet tomorrow morning at such & such time & let's see. Anyway to cut the long story short we met the next day had a whale of time, he also wanted to shop so took him to quite a few shops, had lunch with him in a traditional maharashtrian place & actually was emberassed to ask for money as he had treated me quite nicely. But the gentleman paid his dues & asked for my postal address. Although was hesitant did give him. After 2-3 months I recieved a nice package which had an expensive-looking english tourist book describing his country (I think it was Iran) with a note attached which had his address & an invite to his place whenever I'm in the county can stay at his place for some period of time. I was touched by his sentiment. So in short things can swing in either way.

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