A Young Israeli Murdered

capt_mahajan · Jul 17th, 2007, 10:46

I honestly dont see the problem going away in a hurry. Entire villages survive on this, with collusion amongst elements within the government etc. The demand is there.

I can only suggest that sensible foreigners avoid that area. Sensible Indians already do.

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 17th, 2007, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeakXV

Whether they were there for drugs or not, that region appears to breed a better than average possibility of getting involved in a real drug situation from either being in the classic wrong place at the wrong time or guilty by association with a new found trekking buddy who actually is using/dealing etc.

..... maybe it's time to clean up the neighbourhood a bit.

Its nothing to do with Neighborhoods...

Just answer a simple question...why is that wherever there are more westerners..its easy to find/procure drugs..

OR the other way round, wherver drugs are easily available, there are more westerners..

I am not saying that all westerners are doing this..maybe only Israelites OR people from a certain section...but they get involved as they want to get involved...

See Goa, Kathmandu, Bangkok ...This place where the incident took place..there would be a lot more examples..

PeakXV · Jul 17th, 2007, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by shashank.aggarwal

Its nothing to do with Neighborhoods...
.

Relax Relax..... it's only a figure of speech that can/might pertain to both local/resident and tourist/outsider i.e anybody in the vicinity involved with the dealings.

lotus blossom · Jul 17th, 2007, 11:43

do all westerners get accosted whilst in the paharganj neighborhood, or is it just those of us with long hair...

drug issues are rampant the world over, unfortunately, cuz there's lots of money to be made on them. and in the mix, some people get killed.

spicetrekker · Jul 17th, 2007, 11:48

Lots of heated debate I see... but a tragic end to a young life.

None of us know the truth in this case but if the police were to use profiling (a term and technique perfected by the Western Europeans and Yanks)the obvious hypothesis they would start an investiation of a young israeli murdered in the Parvati region in HP will be .....

I think the israelis (as a group and not necessarily the indvidual) also have to own up some part of the blame - they typically come here after their conscription and really let themselves loose and times are disrespectful of locals and their traditions. A few years ago I spent some time cycling from Kullu to Manikaran and found a lot of young israelis running amock... almost felt like a stranger in my own country. Having said that I never felt any danger of being robbed or lynched and had a good time. Even in Manikaran gurudwara (Sikh place of worship) there were a few foreigners (I guess Israelis) who were not obeying simple rules like covering their heads - my suggesstion is if you find the rules stupid then dont visit such places of worship.

Lastly if you want to visit Manikaran by all means do so - there is no danger if you are careful. It is like going to New York and walking alone in a dark alley late night and getting mugged and then advising people not to go to NY as it is not safe - you got to take your precautions..

In summary
1. It is a sad event
2. The primary blame has to be taken by the Govt of HP - they know what happens here and should now crack down on this
3. Lastly dont agree that one can blame the locals alone - the tourists also need to be careful
4. If you are careful you can still visit and enjoy the beauty of these areas

My aim is to agitate and disturb people. I'm not selling bread, I'm selling
yeast.

lotus blossom · Jul 17th, 2007, 11:52

an interesting read on parvati valley:

The Parvati valley is exceptionally beautiful and just a little sinister. It’s a very narrow valley with the mountains rising steeply on both sides, allowing a couple less hours of light than in other areas. It’s famous for its high quality charas production and most travellers who come here are stoners.

http://www.roadjunky.com/guide/364/p...s-travel-guide

Nick-H · Jul 17th, 2007, 14:02

My take...

I have great sympathy for the tragic loss suffered by these friends and the family of the dead guy. A life is over; others will be changed for ever.

Then, in practical terms, I must be more cold-hearted...

Expectations of Inurance cover

I wonder what any of expect when we buy, often expensive, travel insurance? I think that many of us do have images of helicopters and private jets coming to our rescue and evacuating us in a vastly expensive operation. And I think that, where justified, the international insurers will set such machinery into motion and get us home.

If there is any chance that more prompt or appropriate action by the insurers might have saved this guy's life then his family and friends have one massive complaint against that company. However, it is not suggested that that was the case, so we must assume that he was dead.

In which case the application of millions of pounds worth of resources is going to do no good whatsoever for anyone. Sad but true. Seriously injured? High priority. Dead? Its too late anyway. Surely people with military training and maybe battle experience must appreciate this very much more than the likes of me?

Indian Law

These guys are travelling in India. They are subject to Indian law. They might even (although probably it would be a little naive) expect the protection of the Indian law.

A brutal murder has taken place and they should expect that the Indian law will take its course. It seems that their actions have been obstructive to this, and in so being, they have probably broken the law themselves.

They want their friend's body retrieved. The local police want their friend's body retreived. What is their problem?

Religious, perhaps? I do know that a Jew should be buried within three days. I do not know if there are proscriptions as to where, or as to who should or should not touch the body.

India is, generally, very aware of religious sensitivities: it has more than enough of its own.

But these guys cannot expect that where they happen to be becomes not-India. They must be subject to the law.

AvidTrekker · Jul 17th, 2007, 22:56

I have been to Parvati Valley with young females in my trekking group. No whiff of danger. YHAI conducts a trek every year thru Malana village (one of the charas hotspots) with many more males & females trekking (50 per day for 45 days) .... no trouble whatsoever. (the members are briefed at base camp not to buy or carry or smoke charas... still, some of them do buy...)

If you keep trekking and touring in general, the Valley is much more safer than Mumbai City..... (go figure...)

I have seen Israelis in Parvati Valley (nowadays hanging around Kasol) and I will refrain from saying what i have observed.... coz i try to say good things only, as far as possible.

If i were to go and hobnob with druglords, i would expect to be killed if i rubbed them the wrong way. Some Westerners, including Israelis have married local women to purchase farmland to cultivate marijuana... and are merrily doing so. Everyone knows about it. Some of these Westerners have been killed in gang wars. (never been reported). I was shown one of the fields belonging to a dead ex-Westerner. The farms are so far up in the mountains that whenever raiding parties are seen coming, the news reaches the owners much earlier and they scoot. Secret helicopter raids are the only real solution for total surprise... but the HP Govt hasn't done such things.

The stakes are very high and even small pushers earn something like 10000 rupees a day in the season.... some Westerners have also adopted this profession.

My trekking guide and friend of many years (resident in the Parvati Valley) was asking a local friend to get some charas from Palampur (of all places)(coz its cheap being outside the main growing area) as he did not want to carry it himself. He knew about the dangers of carrying charas in the Parvati valley.... and was telling the Palampur chap to be discreet. The fellow was a relative so the charas was to be procured almost for free.. but it is dangerous for anyone to carry it, only the trade people carry it and buy their "immunity".

Having seen and said all this, I still feel Mumbai is a far more dangerous place to be living in... many more reasons to kill you (vehicular accidents f'rinstance).

If you are "clean" and a normal tourist, by all means go to Parvati valley, its a spectacularly beautiful valley and pretty much safe. One of the best treks of my Himalayan sojourn was done here in 2005. Some 400 trekkers criss-crossed the Valley that month of August 2005 according to one of the dhaba owners.

Just go. Don't worry. Its safer than most big cities.

Sadanand Kamath · Jul 17th, 2007, 23:33

I entirely agree with the assessment of AvidTrekker.

I have been to YHAI trek to Chandrakhani Pass in June 1986 and I have spend two days each at Malana and Kashol. The talk about the menance of druglords were very much there at that time too. But the normal tourists and trekkers still visit these places. So long as one keeps distances from people involved in drug business and don't become the victim of circumstances, I feel there is nothing to worry about safety of the normal tourists in Paravati Valley.

Sadanand

mike mike · Jul 17th, 2007, 23:47

There is nothing as said by all trekkers ,i second with shashank that what the hell westerners r upto there...?
We cannot blame locals as locals 'I mean why they will kill someone who is giving them bread n bui'ness.
I heard few stories before aswell but there is some other notorious groups of people who kill tourist just for peices of shet green paper(money).
They kill innocent people n hide themselves ........... from some sources it is believed that nepali's r the one who come for work there n kill tourist for $.....!
Finally,it is so sad to know this young boys end .
Sorry to the family n his soul n may god bless him peace in heaven .

machadinha · Jul 18th, 2007, 03:21

Latest coverage: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en=us...ncl=1118243806 .

(These links tend to break after a while I think. You can search that site for Israeli then find the appropriate article then click "all articles" on that subject.)

kalbarri · Sep 25th, 2007, 11:42

there are two sides to every story. most of the israelis i saw in india were in groups and tended to be very arrogant towards indian people and i was told by very poor owners of accommodation that they would avoid renting to israelis because they were noisy, unfriendly and left the rooms very dirty. i heard a lot of complaints about israelis also in sri lanka. sorry to have to say that but i think it needs a mention and i think this group travelling tends to make the people isolate themselves from the local people in the country they are travelling in.

Nick-H · Sep 25th, 2007, 13:48

Whether what you say is true or not is beside the point.

Being an arrogant, loud-mouthed bastard, regardless of nationality, does not merit death sentence.

kalbarri · Sep 26th, 2007, 11:41

like i said , there are 2 sides to every story! how do we know that the murderer wasn't defending himself. i gave an example in defence of india before there is great fears and hysteria about "unsafe india". i am not the only one to mention certain persons bad behaviour, why am i the only one to get a tongue lashing???

mridula · Sep 26th, 2007, 12:09

So we are talking about Kasol and thereabout? Well, I did my first trek through YHAI and the base camp was Kasol. There were weird looking people but they never bothered us. I at least never felt unsafe there.

Jul 17th, 2007, 11:43	#19
lotus blossom re-member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: revolving around the sun standing still Posts: 1,890	do all westerners get accosted whilst in the paharganj neighborhood, or is it just those of us with long hair... drug issues are rampant the world over, unfortunately, cuz there's lots of money to be made on them. and in the mix, some people get killed. __________________ Not all who wander are lost

Jul 17th, 2007, 14:02	#22
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,747	My take... I have great sympathy for the tragic loss suffered by these friends and the family of the dead guy. A life is over; others will be changed for ever. Then, in practical terms, I must be more cold-hearted... Expectations of Inurance cover I wonder what any of expect when we buy, often expensive, travel insurance? I think that many of us do have images of helicopters and private jets coming to our rescue and evacuating us in a vastly expensive operation. And I think that, where justified, the international insurers will set such machinery into motion and get us home. If there is any chance that more prompt or appropriate action by the insurers might have saved this guy's life then his family and friends have one massive complaint against that company. However, it is not suggested that that was the case, so we must assume that he was dead. In which case the application of millions of pounds worth of resources is going to do no good whatsoever for anyone. Sad but true. Seriously injured? High priority. Dead? Its too late anyway. Surely people with military training and maybe battle experience must appreciate this very much more than the likes of me? Indian Law These guys are travelling in India. They are subject to Indian law. They might even (although probably it would be a little naive) expect the protection of the Indian law. A brutal murder has taken place and they should expect that the Indian law will take its course. It seems that their actions have been obstructive to this, and in so being, they have probably broken the law themselves. They want their friend's body retrieved. The local police want their friend's body retreived. What is their problem? Religious, perhaps? I do know that a Jew should be buried within three days. I do not know if there are proscriptions as to where, or as to who should or should not touch the body. India is, generally, very aware of religious sensitivities: it has more than enough of its own. But these guys cannot expect that where they happen to be becomes not-India. They must be subject to the law. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Jul 17th, 2007, 22:56	#23
AvidTrekker Veda Chanting & Mantra Yoga teacher Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: body in Mumbai, head in Himalaya Posts: 2,785	Parvati Valley I have been to Parvati Valley with young females in my trekking group. No whiff of danger. YHAI conducts a trek every year thru Malana village (one of the charas hotspots) with many more males & females trekking (50 per day for 45 days) .... no trouble whatsoever. (the members are briefed at base camp not to buy or carry or smoke charas... still, some of them do buy...) If you keep trekking and touring in general, the Valley is much more safer than Mumbai City..... (go figure...) I have seen Israelis in Parvati Valley (nowadays hanging around Kasol) and I will refrain from saying what i have observed.... coz i try to say good things only, as far as possible. If i were to go and hobnob with druglords, i would expect to be killed if i rubbed them the wrong way. Some Westerners, including Israelis have married local women to purchase farmland to cultivate marijuana... and are merrily doing so. Everyone knows about it. Some of these Westerners have been killed in gang wars. (never been reported). I was shown one of the fields belonging to a dead ex-Westerner. The farms are so far up in the mountains that whenever raiding parties are seen coming, the news reaches the owners much earlier and they scoot. Secret helicopter raids are the only real solution for total surprise... but the HP Govt hasn't done such things. The stakes are very high and even small pushers earn something like 10000 rupees a day in the season.... some Westerners have also adopted this profession. My trekking guide and friend of many years (resident in the Parvati Valley) was asking a local friend to get some charas from Palampur (of all places)(coz its cheap being outside the main growing area) as he did not want to carry it himself. He knew about the dangers of carrying charas in the Parvati valley.... and was telling the Palampur chap to be discreet. The fellow was a relative so the charas was to be procured almost for free.. but it is dangerous for anyone to carry it, only the trade people carry it and buy their "immunity". Having seen and said all this, I still feel Mumbai is a far more dangerous place to be living in... many more reasons to kill you (vehicular accidents f'rinstance). If you are "clean" and a normal tourist, by all means go to Parvati valley, its a spectacularly beautiful valley and pretty much safe. One of the best treks of my Himalayan sojourn was done here in 2005. Some 400 trekkers criss-crossed the Valley that month of August 2005 according to one of the dhaba owners. Just go. Don't worry. Its safer than most big cities. __________________ The Universe is an ellipsoid?... or a Spheroid?? If the sphere smiles... it becomes an ellipse. This IS Creation.

Jul 18th, 2007, 03:21	#26
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 10,505	Latest coverage: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en=us...ncl=1118243806 . (These links tend to break after a while I think. You can search that site for Israeli then find the appropriate article then click "all articles" on that subject.) __________________ Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links Last edited by machadinha : Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:31.

Sep 25th, 2007, 11:42	#27
kalbarri kalbarri Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: WESTERN australia Posts: 364	trveller murdered there are two sides to every story. most of the israelis i saw in india were in groups and tended to be very arrogant towards indian people and i was told by very poor owners of accommodation that they would avoid renting to israelis because they were noisy, unfriendly and left the rooms very dirty. i heard a lot of complaints about israelis also in sri lanka. sorry to have to say that but i think it needs a mention and i think this group travelling tends to make the people isolate themselves from the local people in the country they are travelling in.

Jul 17th, 2007, 10:46	#16
capt_mahajan (in charge of navel affairs) Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 10,096	I honestly dont see the problem going away in a hurry. Entire villages survive on this, with collusion amongst elements within the government etc. The demand is there. I can only suggest that sensible foreigners avoid that area. Sensible Indians already do.

Jul 17th, 2007, 11:48	#20
spicetrekker Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mumbai Posts: 297	Lots of heated debate I see... but a tragic end to a young life. None of us know the truth in this case but if the police were to use profiling (a term and technique perfected by the Western Europeans and Yanks)the obvious hypothesis they would start an investiation of a young israeli murdered in the Parvati region in HP will be ..... I think the israelis (as a group and not necessarily the indvidual) also have to own up some part of the blame - they typically come here after their conscription and really let themselves loose and times are disrespectful of locals and their traditions. A few years ago I spent some time cycling from Kullu to Manikaran and found a lot of young israelis running amock... almost felt like a stranger in my own country. Having said that I never felt any danger of being robbed or lynched and had a good time. Even in Manikaran gurudwara (Sikh place of worship) there were a few foreigners (I guess Israelis) who were not obeying simple rules like covering their heads - my suggesstion is if you find the rules stupid then dont visit such places of worship. Lastly if you want to visit Manikaran by all means do so - there is no danger if you are careful. It is like going to New York and walking alone in a dark alley late night and getting mugged and then advising people not to go to NY as it is not safe - you got to take your precautions.. In summary 1. It is a sad event 2. The primary blame has to be taken by the Govt of HP - they know what happens here and should now crack down on this 3. Lastly dont agree that one can blame the locals alone - the tourists also need to be careful 4. If you are careful you can still visit and enjoy the beauty of these areas My aim is to agitate and disturb people. I'm not selling bread, I'm selling yeast.

Jul 17th, 2007, 11:52	#21
lotus blossom re-member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: revolving around the sun standing still Posts: 1,890	an interesting read on parvati valley: The Parvati valley is exceptionally beautiful and just a little sinister. It’s a very narrow valley with the mountains rising steeply on both sides, allowing a couple less hours of light than in other areas. It’s famous for its high quality charas production and most travellers who come here are stoners. http://www.roadjunky.com/guide/364/p...s-travel-guide

Jul 17th, 2007, 23:33	#24
Sadanand Kamath Maha Guru Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 853	I entirely agree with the assessment of AvidTrekker. I have been to YHAI trek to Chandrakhani Pass in June 1986 and I have spend two days each at Malana and Kashol. The talk about the menance of druglords were very much there at that time too. But the normal tourists and trekkers still visit these places. So long as one keeps distances from people involved in drug business and don't become the victim of circumstances, I feel there is nothing to worry about safety of the normal tourists in Paravati Valley. Sadanand

Jul 17th, 2007, 23:47	#25
mike mike Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: n.d Posts: 76	There is nothing as said by all trekkers ,i second with shashank that what the hell westerners r upto there...? We cannot blame locals as locals 'I mean why they will kill someone who is giving them bread n bui'ness. I heard few stories before aswell but there is some other notorious groups of people who kill tourist just for peices of shet green paper(money). They kill innocent people n hide themselves ........... from some sources it is believed that nepali's r the one who come for work there n kill tourist for $.....! Finally,it is so sad to know this young boys end . Sorry to the family n his soul n may god bless him peace in heaven .

Sep 25th, 2007, 13:48	#28
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,747	Whether what you say is true or not is beside the point. Being an arrogant, loud-mouthed bastard, regardless of nationality, does not merit death sentence.

Sep 26th, 2007, 11:41	#29
kalbarri kalbarri Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: WESTERN australia Posts: 364	nick H like i said , there are 2 sides to every story! how do we know that the murderer wasn't defending himself. i gave an example in defence of india before there is great fears and hysteria about "unsafe india". i am not the only one to mention certain persons bad behaviour, why am i the only one to get a tongue lashing???

Sep 26th, 2007, 12:09	#30
mridula Sair Kar Duniya Ki Galib , Jindagani Fir Kahan ... Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 1,272	So we are talking about Kasol and thereabout? Well, I did my first trek through YHAI and the base camp was Kasol. There were weird looking people but they never bothered us. I at least never felt unsafe there. __________________ mridula http://www.gonomad.com/traveltalesfromindia/

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