Heritage Hotels

npjai · Aug 7th, 2005, 00:14

Posting by Androidmarv on 2nd August in "dream holiday in Rajasthan" thread -

Hullo everyone!

I'm doing this classroom project that studies brand perception in the heritage hospitality industry.

what all factors do you consider while deciding upon a heritage hotel, apart from price, what the travel agent says or images on the net.

Does brand perception play any role before or after visiting the place? Do you know of any heritage hotel brands?

some that I know are:
Taj - Oberoi - WelcomHeritage - Devigarh - Neemrana - HRH group.

Any clue about their services?
Thanks a ton for help!!

npjai · Aug 7th, 2005, 00:15

Posting by npjai in "dream holiday in Rajasthan" thread on 3rd August -

Would love to get the study report from you so will contribute in hope I will get a copy..

Heres my brand perception about the properties you have named -

Taj - With Taj Mahal Bombay, Rambagh, Ummaid Bhawan, Lake Palace, Jai Mahal, Usha Kiran under their belt, definitely the number 1 heritage chain in India. Good management, excellent food. However, wherever they have renovated properties, they have destroyed the old heritage feel of the place e.g Rambagh
Oberoi - Apart from Wildflower Hall, all other properties that claim to be heritage (The Rajvilas, Udai Vilas) are heritage wannabes since theyre new and dont qualify as heritage properties. However its good that some architects are using Indian styles and hopefully the trend will catch. Full marks to Mr Oberoi to have started this trend.
WelcomHeritage - Excellent value for money properties. Though some properties dont fit the heritage tag (Tiger Heaven, Sariska, Jagat Niwas, Pushkar). So theyre a bit confused and growing for the sake of growing. They have absolute gems like Balsamand, Khimsar and have spread all over India. But now I would perceive them a second-rung players after the loss of Ummaid Bhawan.
Devigarh - Surreal beauty. Hope Mrs Poddar comes up with more such properties soon. Easily in the Rambagh, Rajvilas category.
Neemrana - Practical properties for the expat crowd..not so much for tourists. Good value for money.
HRH Group - Shiv Niwas/Fateh Prakash/Gajner/Karni Bhawan are excellent. Other properties can be iffy and some are not heritage, e.g. Gorbandh. Aodhi.
However you have mentioned the best Heritage properties of them all - the Samode properties - painstakingly restored, fully invested in and epitomes of good taste which appreciates the arts and traditions of old times.
Another chain to watch out for is Alsisar - the Jaipur haveli has already established itself, and they have another property coming up at their hometown.
Unfortunately, most are under-invested, amateurishly managed properties like Roopangarh, Phool Bagh, Kuchaman, (where Sting actually stayed and not at Roopangarh as wrongly posted by someone else), Lallagrh, Jawahar Niwas, the list is too long and the potential for each of these properties, huge.
But I would stay anytime in a heritage property, however poorly run, to get a feel of a time and a lifestyle long gone. If nothing else, the staff is invariably local, friendly, helpful and actually have genuine smiles.

npjai · Aug 7th, 2005, 00:17

Posting by Androidmarv in "dream holiday in Rajasthan" thread on 6th Aug -

Npjai, thanks a ton for information!!! This was GREAT help!

i had seen the samode properties on the net but did not know which chain they were affiliated to. Alsisar I had never heard about. unfortunately I haven't been to any heritage property, all I have seen is photographs. Btw...you have some nice pics on your blog

When you say "destroyed the old heritage feel", i suppose you mean its not the exact replica of the ambience of that time. Yet you call Taj the number 1 in heritage hospitality...so is it judged more by the architectural magnificence than by authenticity of interiors and service? it seems so since you also mentioned that loss of Ummaid Bhawan was detrimental for welcomheritage.

by destroying the 'old heritage feel' would you rather go for something more authentic, or the grandeur of architecture would still take you there despite interiors?

"Neemrana - Practical properties for the expat crowd..not so much for tourists"... you mean to say they are not in locations with much to do around them?

"WelcomHeritage - ..Though some properties dont fit the heritage tag Tiger Heaven, Sariska, Jagat Niwas, Pushkar"...i suppose they are going beyond "architectural" heritage and getting into all sorts of heritage. in principle it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but i suppose the heritage hotel trend started with the aim of preserving properties, so in that sense it defeats the purpose...pl comment further...

does welcomheritage trigger any connections with welcomgroup? if yes, does it make a difference in deciding which heritage hotel to stay in?

from what i've gathered it seems people are more interested in the property rather than who runs it. the property itself is like a tourist spot and they'd rather explore them all. if the ambience, service, food is good, they'd visit again.

oh and lastly, is your account based on your personal experience or is it a collective analysis of what feedback your clients have given you? how do they base their judgements and travel choices, considering they are not as well aware of the properties as you are?

Thanks a ton again!

npjai · Aug 7th, 2005, 00:24

Ive started this new thread since the discussion is really on Heritage Hotels. Hope itll keep the focus clearer...

Im quoting your text and giving replies below...

When you say "destroyed the old heritage feel", i suppose you mean its not the exact replica of the ambience of that time. Yet you call Taj the number 1 in heritage hospitality...so is it judged more by the architectural magnificence than by authenticity of interiors and service? it seems so since you also mentioned that loss of Ummaid Bhawan was detrimental for welcomheritage.

by destroying the 'old heritage feel' would you rather go for something more authentic, or the grandeur of architecture would still take you there despite interiors?

Definitely the building is the most important attribute of a heritage hotel. The bigger and grander the building, the bigger and grander and more expensive hotel it makes. However when we come to restoring heritage buildings to serve as hotels, an important measure of the success or failure of the restoration effort is the authenticity of the ineteriors. Im not an interior decorator but when I compare the interiors of Rambagh to the interiors as done by Samode, I find the effect so much more authentic at Samode. Both have new furniture but while all of the Samode interior takes you back to period in the Rajasthan past, some of the Rambagh interior (e.g Suryavanshi suite) takes you to present Las Vegas. So why come to Rajasthan if you get to stay in a hotel room out of Las Vegas? But the charm of Rambagh is that the building and the gardens are so magnificent that the interiors are minor irritants and any way someone paying USD 750 a night is not likely to criticise the interior specially if its plush and tends to pamper. I would give 80% weightage to the building and only 20% to the interior. So Taj scores big as it has some of the best heriatge buildings in which to run hotels. Also see - http://www.indianheritagehotels.com/restoration.asp, which talks of the Neemrana restoration by Aman Nath and Francis Wacziarg. Their first project was of course Castle Mandawa and Neemrana came afterwards.

"Neemrana - Practical properties for the expat crowd..not so much for tourists"... you mean to say they are not in locations with much to do around them?

Yes theyre really weekend retreats meant primarily for business people specially expats to get out to and relax in e.g. Neemrana, Glass House, Piramal Haveli for the Delhi crowd. Minimum to sightsee around these places.

"WelcomHeritage - ..Though some properties dont fit the heritage tag Tiger Heaven, Sariska, Jagat Niwas, Pushkar"...i suppose they are going beyond "architectural" heritage and getting into all sorts of heritage. in principle it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but i suppose the heritage hotel trend started with the aim of preserving properties, so in that sense it defeats the purpose...pl comment further...

When we are talking of heritage in context of hotels, we are talking primarily about Built Heritage (and not say the craft heritage or folk heritage etc). Any hotel, even a modern hotel can use traditional crafts to decorate its rooms and have an evening folk dance, but that does not make it a heritage hotel. No heritage building, no heritage hotel. The rules for classifying hotels are - Hotels will qualify for classification as Heritage hotels provided a minimum 50% of the floor area was built before 1935 and no substantial change has been made in the facade. Hotels, which have been classified/, re-classified under Heritage categories prior to issue of these Guidelines will continue under Heritage categories even if they were built between 1935-1950.

does welcomheritage trigger any connections with welcomgroup? if yes, does it make a difference in deciding which heritage hotel to stay in?

Yes Welcomheritage brand is owned by Welcomgroup though the individual properties are mostly under a management or marketing arrangement. It was started to provide Welcomgroup's management expertise to up and coming heritage properties.

from what i've gathered it seems people are more interested in the property rather than who runs it. the property itself is like a tourist spot and they'd rather explore them all. if the ambience, service, food is good, they'd visit again.

Some heritage properties do run on the owners charisma. Say a dinner with a Maharaja. But in the long run, if its a hotel, it has to succeed on, as you said, the ambience, service, food.

oh and lastly, is your account based on your personal experience or is it a collective analysis of what feedback your clients have given you? how do they base their judgements and travel choices, considering they are not as well aware of the properties as you are?

Its a collection of personal experience, feedback from clients and more importantly exchanging notes with other professionals.

edwardseco · Aug 7th, 2005, 01:48

Heritage is a bit of a feeling about antiquity. A lot depends on the staff. I liked the Bikaneer Palace in Mt. Abu despite being run down. Government run is not a good sign..

shere · Aug 7th, 2005, 03:25

From my only experience of a heritage type hotel, I agree with edwardseco about government run heritage hotels.

I went to Chail Palace hotel in Himachal and found the modernisation sickening. A modern plastic bathroom in the Maharaj suite looked disgusting. The common toilets near the lobby area reminded me of those urinals you get a bus stations in India (they stunk of urine like them and looked as if the cleaner had forgot to clean them for the last few years).

androidmarv · Aug 11th, 2005, 04:14

hullo...npjai
thanks a ton for this new thread and to keep things in focus. I should've done this. Thanks again.

will mail in sometime, still figuring things out.

btw way, interesting site: http://www.indiaresortssurvey.com

they call upon registered users who are also regular travelers to rate whatever destination they have visited. destinations are classified according to various parameters, heritage being one of them. the ratings depend on the average of several criterion which range from architectural experience to service. you can also compare prices.

it seems to be an unbiased review, as you can even tell whether enuff people have rated a particular site or not for its numbers to be authentic. It gives an idea of visitor movement to the locations.

Neemrana apparently is visited by loads of ppl. Its ratings may not be the best but they are way above average and high visitor influx seems to indicate a highly commendable overall performance.

ofcourse, the ratings must be biased since not all travelers are registered at the site. but i suppose its a good place to start off at for a cluless traveller.

has anybody ever used these services? how would one rate the site in terms of the quality of information provided?

this is an open question. i'm not speaking to just npjai over here.

thanks for all the feedback guys. this is really cool

!

Aug 7th, 2005, 00:14	#1
npjai Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 167	Heritage Hotels Posting by Androidmarv on 2nd August in "dream holiday in Rajasthan" thread - Hullo everyone! I'm doing this classroom project that studies brand perception in the heritage hospitality industry. what all factors do you consider while deciding upon a heritage hotel, apart from price, what the travel agent says or images on the net. Does brand perception play any role before or after visiting the place? Do you know of any heritage hotel brands? some that I know are: Taj - Oberoi - WelcomHeritage - Devigarh - Neemrana - HRH group. Any clue about their services? Thanks a ton for help!! __________________ Pax Vobiscum - May you go in peace!

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Aug 7th, 2005, 00:15	#2
npjai Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 167	Posting by npjai in "dream holiday in Rajasthan" thread on 3rd August - Would love to get the study report from you so will contribute in hope I will get a copy.. Heres my brand perception about the properties you have named - Taj - With Taj Mahal Bombay, Rambagh, Ummaid Bhawan, Lake Palace, Jai Mahal, Usha Kiran under their belt, definitely the number 1 heritage chain in India. Good management, excellent food. However, wherever they have renovated properties, they have destroyed the old heritage feel of the place e.g Rambagh Oberoi - Apart from Wildflower Hall, all other properties that claim to be heritage (The Rajvilas, Udai Vilas) are heritage wannabes since theyre new and dont qualify as heritage properties. However its good that some architects are using Indian styles and hopefully the trend will catch. Full marks to Mr Oberoi to have started this trend. WelcomHeritage - Excellent value for money properties. Though some properties dont fit the heritage tag (Tiger Heaven, Sariska, Jagat Niwas, Pushkar). So theyre a bit confused and growing for the sake of growing. They have absolute gems like Balsamand, Khimsar and have spread all over India. But now I would perceive them a second-rung players after the loss of Ummaid Bhawan. Devigarh - Surreal beauty. Hope Mrs Poddar comes up with more such properties soon. Easily in the Rambagh, Rajvilas category. Neemrana - Practical properties for the expat crowd..not so much for tourists. Good value for money. HRH Group - Shiv Niwas/Fateh Prakash/Gajner/Karni Bhawan are excellent. Other properties can be iffy and some are not heritage, e.g. Gorbandh. Aodhi. However you have mentioned the best Heritage properties of them all - the Samode properties - painstakingly restored, fully invested in and epitomes of good taste which appreciates the arts and traditions of old times. Another chain to watch out for is Alsisar - the Jaipur haveli has already established itself, and they have another property coming up at their hometown. Unfortunately, most are under-invested, amateurishly managed properties like Roopangarh, Phool Bagh, Kuchaman, (where Sting actually stayed and not at Roopangarh as wrongly posted by someone else), Lallagrh, Jawahar Niwas, the list is too long and the potential for each of these properties, huge. But I would stay anytime in a heritage property, however poorly run, to get a feel of a time and a lifestyle long gone. If nothing else, the staff is invariably local, friendly, helpful and actually have genuine smiles.

Aug 7th, 2005, 00:17	#3
npjai Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 167	Posting by Androidmarv in "dream holiday in Rajasthan" thread on 6th Aug - Npjai, thanks a ton for information!!! This was GREAT help! i had seen the samode properties on the net but did not know which chain they were affiliated to. Alsisar I had never heard about. unfortunately I haven't been to any heritage property, all I have seen is photographs. Btw...you have some nice pics on your blog When you say "destroyed the old heritage feel", i suppose you mean its not the exact replica of the ambience of that time. Yet you call Taj the number 1 in heritage hospitality...so is it judged more by the architectural magnificence than by authenticity of interiors and service? it seems so since you also mentioned that loss of Ummaid Bhawan was detrimental for welcomheritage. by destroying the 'old heritage feel' would you rather go for something more authentic, or the grandeur of architecture would still take you there despite interiors? "Neemrana - Practical properties for the expat crowd..not so much for tourists"... you mean to say they are not in locations with much to do around them? "WelcomHeritage - ..Though some properties dont fit the heritage tag Tiger Heaven, Sariska, Jagat Niwas, Pushkar"...i suppose they are going beyond "architectural" heritage and getting into all sorts of heritage. in principle it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but i suppose the heritage hotel trend started with the aim of preserving properties, so in that sense it defeats the purpose...pl comment further... does welcomheritage trigger any connections with welcomgroup? if yes, does it make a difference in deciding which heritage hotel to stay in? from what i've gathered it seems people are more interested in the property rather than who runs it. the property itself is like a tourist spot and they'd rather explore them all. if the ambience, service, food is good, they'd visit again. oh and lastly, is your account based on your personal experience or is it a collective analysis of what feedback your clients have given you? how do they base their judgements and travel choices, considering they are not as well aware of the properties as you are? Thanks a ton again!

Aug 7th, 2005, 00:24	#4
npjai Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 167	Ive started this new thread since the discussion is really on Heritage Hotels. Hope itll keep the focus clearer... Im quoting your text and giving replies below... When you say "destroyed the old heritage feel", i suppose you mean its not the exact replica of the ambience of that time. Yet you call Taj the number 1 in heritage hospitality...so is it judged more by the architectural magnificence than by authenticity of interiors and service? it seems so since you also mentioned that loss of Ummaid Bhawan was detrimental for welcomheritage. by destroying the 'old heritage feel' would you rather go for something more authentic, or the grandeur of architecture would still take you there despite interiors? Definitely the building is the most important attribute of a heritage hotel. The bigger and grander the building, the bigger and grander and more expensive hotel it makes. However when we come to restoring heritage buildings to serve as hotels, an important measure of the success or failure of the restoration effort is the authenticity of the ineteriors. Im not an interior decorator but when I compare the interiors of Rambagh to the interiors as done by Samode, I find the effect so much more authentic at Samode. Both have new furniture but while all of the Samode interior takes you back to period in the Rajasthan past, some of the Rambagh interior (e.g Suryavanshi suite) takes you to present Las Vegas. So why come to Rajasthan if you get to stay in a hotel room out of Las Vegas? But the charm of Rambagh is that the building and the gardens are so magnificent that the interiors are minor irritants and any way someone paying USD 750 a night is not likely to criticise the interior specially if its plush and tends to pamper. I would give 80% weightage to the building and only 20% to the interior. So Taj scores big as it has some of the best heriatge buildings in which to run hotels. Also see - http://www.indianheritagehotels.com/restoration.asp, which talks of the Neemrana restoration by Aman Nath and Francis Wacziarg. Their first project was of course Castle Mandawa and Neemrana came afterwards. "Neemrana - Practical properties for the expat crowd..not so much for tourists"... you mean to say they are not in locations with much to do around them? Yes theyre really weekend retreats meant primarily for business people specially expats to get out to and relax in e.g. Neemrana, Glass House, Piramal Haveli for the Delhi crowd. Minimum to sightsee around these places. "WelcomHeritage - ..Though some properties dont fit the heritage tag Tiger Heaven, Sariska, Jagat Niwas, Pushkar"...i suppose they are going beyond "architectural" heritage and getting into all sorts of heritage. in principle it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but i suppose the heritage hotel trend started with the aim of preserving properties, so in that sense it defeats the purpose...pl comment further... When we are talking of heritage in context of hotels, we are talking primarily about Built Heritage (and not say the craft heritage or folk heritage etc). Any hotel, even a modern hotel can use traditional crafts to decorate its rooms and have an evening folk dance, but that does not make it a heritage hotel. No heritage building, no heritage hotel. The rules for classifying hotels are - Hotels will qualify for classification as Heritage hotels provided a minimum 50% of the floor area was built before 1935 and no substantial change has been made in the facade. Hotels, which have been classified/, re-classified under Heritage categories prior to issue of these Guidelines will continue under Heritage categories even if they were built between 1935-1950. does welcomheritage trigger any connections with welcomgroup? if yes, does it make a difference in deciding which heritage hotel to stay in? Yes Welcomheritage brand is owned by Welcomgroup though the individual properties are mostly under a management or marketing arrangement. It was started to provide Welcomgroup's management expertise to up and coming heritage properties. from what i've gathered it seems people are more interested in the property rather than who runs it. the property itself is like a tourist spot and they'd rather explore them all. if the ambience, service, food is good, they'd visit again. Some heritage properties do run on the owners charisma. Say a dinner with a Maharaja. But in the long run, if its a hotel, it has to succeed on, as you said, the ambience, service, food. oh and lastly, is your account based on your personal experience or is it a collective analysis of what feedback your clients have given you? how do they base their judgements and travel choices, considering they are not as well aware of the properties as you are? Its a collection of personal experience, feedback from clients and more importantly exchanging notes with other professionals.

Aug 7th, 2005, 01:48	#5
edwardseco Maha Guru Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Land that shakes and bakes. Posts: 4,212	Heritage is a bit of a feeling about antiquity. A lot depends on the staff. I liked the Bikaneer Palace in Mt. Abu despite being run down. Government run is not a good sign..

Aug 7th, 2005, 03:25	#6
shere Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: England Posts: 1,122	From my only experience of a heritage type hotel, I agree with edwardseco about government run heritage hotels. I went to Chail Palace hotel in Himachal and found the modernisation sickening. A modern plastic bathroom in the Maharaj suite looked disgusting. The common toilets near the lobby area reminded me of those urinals you get a bus stations in India (they stunk of urine like them and looked as if the cleaner had forgot to clean them for the last few years).

Aug 11th, 2005, 04:14	#7
androidmarv big brother is watching Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: India Posts: 9	hullo...npjai thanks a ton for this new thread and to keep things in focus. I should've done this. Thanks again. will mail in sometime, still figuring things out. btw way, interesting site: http://www.indiaresortssurvey.com they call upon registered users who are also regular travelers to rate whatever destination they have visited. destinations are classified according to various parameters, heritage being one of them. the ratings depend on the average of several criterion which range from architectural experience to service. you can also compare prices. it seems to be an unbiased review, as you can even tell whether enuff people have rated a particular site or not for its numbers to be authentic. It gives an idea of visitor movement to the locations. Neemrana apparently is visited by loads of ppl. Its ratings may not be the best but they are way above average and high visitor influx seems to indicate a highly commendable overall performance. ofcourse, the ratings must be biased since not all travelers are registered at the site. but i suppose its a good place to start off at for a cluless traveller. has anybody ever used these services? how would one rate the site in terms of the quality of information provided? this is an open question. i'm not speaking to just npjai over here. thanks for all the feedback guys. this is really cool !

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