Female tourists abused in Rajasthan

PeakXV · Jan 12th, 2008, 04:27

Karuna, I wasn't directing my sermon toward anyone in particular.

And I do wonder about the percentage of these crimes that are actually reported.

The elimination of these crimes and the need for 100% disclosure by the victim(regardless of the consequences & humiliation) upon ocurrance is something that is needed 'now' in every nook & cranny of the world.

What does annoy me is the perception that ' X country is much safer than my home country for' for these atrocities. Wrong! that's just the attitude that will get a tourist/traveller in trouble - Rape and/or sexual abuse is a global problem and an omnipresent mental mindset to 'not drop one's guard' is a skill that all women should have in their repertoire of defences - wherever they may be.

karuna · Jan 12th, 2008, 04:36

OK.

Without the figures I guess we can't know. About relative safety I mean- but your point about reported incidents too.

wonderwomanusa · Jan 12th, 2008, 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by karuna

Of course rape is not peculiar to any country, but it would be interesting I think (especially in dicussing the hot topic of the safety of women travellers in India), to know the relative numbers of reported rapes of tourists in India and elsewhere.

Although we sometimes see newspaper stories about crimes against tourists/visitors, I don't believe San Francisco publishes a table showing the incidence of crimes against visitors vs. crimes against residents. Perhaps this is because it is harder to tell us apart.

Aishah · Jan 12th, 2008, 09:36

Reported incidents are much lower than what really is going on, either with tourists or with fellow countrymen - anywhere in the world. If you look at figures for reported incidents with tourists in India, I should think extremely low. This may be close to the reality here, because I think tourists are more likely to be reporting.

capt_mahajan · Jan 12th, 2008, 09:54

Connected,

Rape Cases Targeting Tourists Force Government To Act

Quote:

The rise in the number of rape and molestation cases across the country targeting women tourists has forced the government to review the safety and security of visitors.

Quote:

The latest report of the National Crime Records Bureau shows there has been a phenomenal eight-fold increase in rapes in India since 1971

http://newspostindia.com/report-30484

and this one makes me

.. this senior Orissa cop's son is convicted of raping a German tourist in Rajasthan, is given and jumps bail under strange circumstances and is still absconding.
The father is suspended from his job, goes underground for months and then resurfaces and 'surrenders', and is then granted bail. (google Bitti Mohanty if you want more)

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14588091
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv...208:38:00%20PM

Aishah · Jan 12th, 2008, 09:59

Me too (angry) Captain - your news items certainly highlight a worrying trend.

capt_mahajan · Jan 12th, 2008, 10:22

Yes, though I don't understand statistics too well (that 8 fold thing is reported rapes , presumably), it is a worrying trend.

What is also happening is that with increased mobility, areas of India with a poorer record are exporting people with criminal and neanderthal mindsets to the rest of the country.

jivan · Jan 12th, 2008, 10:55

hi all,
granted, men should be able to hold their impulses. Also, I'm not talking about being fully-covered, what I'm saying is has been said before, be 'street smart' as much as possible. Have a stick (as I've seen some women carrying) which is more than enough to terrify the guys. Most of the Indian men won't try anything just with the shame what if we get beaten .. that too by a girl.
Another possibility that does arise is a 'friend' spiking a drink or two with 'date drugs' or whatever they were called. There were few reports also of that.

In a perfect world, men would be able to hold their impulses, men & women would not be frustrated either of each other or themselves, and all would be good, but alas we don't live in perfect world

Casey · Jan 12th, 2008, 11:57

I don't understand how the topless and drawing attention to yourself discussion has anything to do with the women in Pushkar and Udaipur. I hardly think being raped in a guesthouse at night has any correlation to women going topless on the beach. I do agree this is not a perfect world and women have to use common sense but somehow I don't think this applies to being raped in your guesthouse.

Nick-H · Jan 12th, 2008, 12:17

Good Point!

desertrose · Jan 13th, 2008, 01:47

Well, Nobody seem to be thinking that it is also possible that the guy actually could be acused of something which he didnt do. You can see a lot of western girls getting drunk and sleeping with Indian guys, and maybe they dont feel soo good about it in the morning. Screaming rape,might be their way to feel good about themselves again? Offcourse it is very difficult to proof who is right when you have only 2 people in the room without a camera, maybe the answer is having a camera every where...1984 here i come ,big brother is watching you. is this the answer???????
The rumors are around Udaipur that the raped english women had an argument with her Indian boyfriend, she is seeing for some while now, in the afternoon. She was drunk when she got to her guest house and continued drinking with the owner of the guest house on the roof, she also took some sleeping pills. She needed one more blanket which he brought to her room and now there are two variations to the story:
1. he raped her then.
2. the other is that they woke up together in the bed in the morning.
people in Udaipur know that the Acused have a german girl friend living with him in udaipur who is partner to the rented hotel property buisness. She was away at the time.

The English woman is seeing a famous casanova from Udaipur(Venice of the East). It Might be possible that she was trying to make her boyfriend jealous after the argument. He, after she told him about the incident,came with his friends or brother and beat the acused. The English woman has also reportadly lended a lot of cash to her Casanova.

Selkie · Jan 13th, 2008, 02:52

As a woman considering a trip (on my own) to Rajasthan next winter, it would be more helpful for me if this thread kept away from apportioning blame for rape on women because of their behaviour or dress, and looked more at what has really been happening and what the situation is really likely to be for women travellers in the area.

I'm just trying to get a feel for the situation so that I can decide whether my travel plans can go ahead or whether I should change my plans to take any concerns into consideration.

You hear a lot of scare stories about women travelling (particularly solo as I would be), it's hard to weigh things up.

Namaste.

machadinha · Jan 13th, 2008, 03:06

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkie

and looked more at what has really been happening and what the situation is really likely to be for women travellers in the area.

If you want my opinion, I'd say they're still isolated cases like happen all over the world, and I wouldn't let it hamper my travel plans in any way. Women get raped where I live, most commonly by men they know quite well (relatives, acquaintances, boyfriends, husbands, etc.)

That is not to belittle the issue nor telling you whether to follow my advise or not (I'm a man in Western Europe btw); but the above reports don't give me the feeling there's anything exceptional going on that should deter female travelers, as such. Yes, stuff can, and obviously does, happen; and if it does, this will be unpleasant no matter where. I'm sure as a woman your coping mechanisms with it all (the way women tend to get treated by some in general, I mean) will be more acutely developed than mine anyway. Seriously, I don't see why or how this should have to stop one from visiting India as such, or most other places for that matter. Nor do I suppose this is somehow peculiar to Rajasthan. India by and large, and for a visitor at least, is really not a very scary place. You may want to steer clear from horny fellow backpackers maybe, before worrying about Indian men.

A massive thread on the intricacies of women traveling there is currently http://www.indiamike.com/india/india...ty-etc-t46858/ ; it's lengthy, humorous, meanders between all possible angles... and may hopefully be helpful in some way

desertrose · Jan 13th, 2008, 03:07

This night around 11.00pm i went to see my cousines and we were standing outside their home at their parking, the place is in the old city, a rickshaw driver came to drop two korean women and just before leaving he came to us and said that one of the women got molested, the other one of them was standing on distance crying for help and the other one was grabbed by a drunk 'pig'. So this elderly rickshaw driver said in hindi, Jamaney kou kya hou gaya hey?, What has happened to the generation? he was telling that this grabber was drunk and the ladies were screaming for help, all the other men around were standing and watching, he ran to a near by police chowki,at Nagori gate and called the police man, who came and starred at the situation and would nt do anything to help the korean lady get rid of this man. finally the guy's friend dragged him to go with him on his motor bike,these men were drinking at one of the liquor shops next to the police station(chowki)and saw these women dressed in salwar kameez without dupattas.
It is sad, but at 11.00pm , off the tourist area,walking in the dark area with no vehicals,two women,no dupattas(scarfs covering their chest),Not many people,it is quite cold again for 2 days here, people head to bed early, well those who were there didnt help much anyways.
Upsetting but i think it can happen any where.

Casey · Jan 13th, 2008, 07:29

Selkie,

I think that these are unfortunate events but that attacks on travellers are not that common or else there would not be as much publicity in the newspapers. I travelled around and used basic common sense and after an adjustment period (I had never travelled alone) felt very safe, particularly in Rajesthan. When I travelled alone I felt that people went out of their way to ensure that I was all right. I had families befriend me on trains and the father shooed off any male attention (wasn't much) that was sent my way.

I recently returned from a trip to New Orleans for work. I was by myself and this past year New Orleans has the most murders of any city in the US. I was warned about the danger etc. and I was a bit leery of going even though I had been there before. Once I arrived the fear disappeared and I used common sense but lost the slight paranoia that was brought about by reading about all the violent crime in the area. Both in New Orleans and Rajesthan, tourists are a very valuable commodity.

On the subject of being grabbed, as mentioned above, I think that some women would react in a very different manner than crying. Having been grabbed here at home I would say anger comes to mind...

Jan 12th, 2008, 04:27	#16
PeakXV Naan.tering Nabob Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Abode of Glooscap Posts: 5,876	Karuna, I wasn't directing my sermon toward anyone in particular. And I do wonder about the percentage of these crimes that are actually reported. The elimination of these crimes and the need for 100% disclosure by the victim(regardless of the consequences & humiliation) upon ocurrance is something that is needed 'now' in every nook & cranny of the world. What does annoy me is the perception that ' X country is much safer than my home country for' for these atrocities. Wrong! that's just the attitude that will get a tourist/traveller in trouble - Rape and/or sexual abuse is a global problem and an omnipresent mental mindset to 'not drop one's guard' is a skill that all women should have in their repertoire of defences - wherever they may be. __________________ What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lives within us. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

Jan 12th, 2008, 09:36	#19
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 7,614	Reported incidents are much lower than what really is going on, either with tourists or with fellow countrymen - anywhere in the world. If you look at figures for reported incidents with tourists in India, I should think extremely low. This may be close to the reality here, because I think tourists are more likely to be reporting. __________________ "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards."

Jan 13th, 2008, 01:47	#26
desertrose Account Closed Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: India Posts: 222	Well, Nobody seem to be thinking that it is also possible that the guy actually could be acused of something which he didnt do. You can see a lot of western girls getting drunk and sleeping with Indian guys, and maybe they dont feel soo good about it in the morning. Screaming rape,might be their way to feel good about themselves again? Offcourse it is very difficult to proof who is right when you have only 2 people in the room without a camera, maybe the answer is having a camera every where...1984 here i come ,big brother is watching you. is this the answer??????? The rumors are around Udaipur that the raped english women had an argument with her Indian boyfriend, she is seeing for some while now, in the afternoon. She was drunk when she got to her guest house and continued drinking with the owner of the guest house on the roof, she also took some sleeping pills. She needed one more blanket which he brought to her room and now there are two variations to the story: 1. he raped her then. 2. the other is that they woke up together in the bed in the morning. people in Udaipur know that the Acused have a german girl friend living with him in udaipur who is partner to the rented hotel property buisness. She was away at the time. The English woman is seeing a famous casanova from Udaipur(Venice of the East). It Might be possible that she was trying to make her boyfriend jealous after the argument. He, after she told him about the incident,came with his friends or brother and beat the acused. The English woman has also reportadly lended a lot of cash to her Casanova. Last edited by desertrose : Jan 13th, 2008 at 01:54. Reason: Spell Check

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Jan 12th, 2008, 04:36	#17
karuna Just a big girl with a small dream Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: A little town you've probably never heard of Posts: 2,976	OK. Without the figures I guess we can't know. About relative safety I mean- but your point about reported incidents too.

Jan 12th, 2008, 09:59	#21
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 7,614	Me too (angry) Captain - your news items certainly highlight a worrying trend.

Jan 12th, 2008, 10:22	#22
capt_mahajan Infidel Sufi Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: styx Posts: 13,599	Yes, though I don't understand statistics too well (that 8 fold thing is reported rapes , presumably), it is a worrying trend. What is also happening is that with increased mobility, areas of India with a poorer record are exporting people with criminal and neanderthal mindsets to the rest of the country.

Jan 12th, 2008, 10:55	#23
jivan Maha Guru Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Pune, India Posts: 862	hi all, granted, men should be able to hold their impulses. Also, I'm not talking about being fully-covered, what I'm saying is has been said before, be 'street smart' as much as possible. Have a stick (as I've seen some women carrying) which is more than enough to terrify the guys. Most of the Indian men won't try anything just with the shame what if we get beaten .. that too by a girl. Another possibility that does arise is a 'friend' spiking a drink or two with 'date drugs' or whatever they were called. There were few reports also of that. In a perfect world, men would be able to hold their impulses, men & women would not be frustrated either of each other or themselves, and all would be good, but alas we don't live in perfect world

Jan 12th, 2008, 11:57	#24
Casey Maha Guru Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 707	I don't understand how the topless and drawing attention to yourself discussion has anything to do with the women in Pushkar and Udaipur. I hardly think being raped in a guesthouse at night has any correlation to women going topless on the beach. I do agree this is not a perfect world and women have to use common sense but somehow I don't think this applies to being raped in your guesthouse.

Jan 12th, 2008, 12:17	#25
Nick-H This is just a cameo appearance Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 36,173	Good Point!

Jan 13th, 2008, 02:52	#27
Selkie Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 143	As a woman considering a trip (on my own) to Rajasthan next winter, it would be more helpful for me if this thread kept away from apportioning blame for rape on women because of their behaviour or dress, and looked more at what has really been happening and what the situation is really likely to be for women travellers in the area. I'm just trying to get a feel for the situation so that I can decide whether my travel plans can go ahead or whether I should change my plans to take any concerns into consideration. You hear a lot of scare stories about women travelling (particularly solo as I would be), it's hard to weigh things up. Namaste.

Jan 13th, 2008, 03:07	#29
desertrose Account Closed Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: India Posts: 222	This night around 11.00pm i went to see my cousines and we were standing outside their home at their parking, the place is in the old city, a rickshaw driver came to drop two korean women and just before leaving he came to us and said that one of the women got molested, the other one of them was standing on distance crying for help and the other one was grabbed by a drunk 'pig'. So this elderly rickshaw driver said in hindi, Jamaney kou kya hou gaya hey?, What has happened to the generation? he was telling that this grabber was drunk and the ladies were screaming for help, all the other men around were standing and watching, he ran to a near by police chowki,at Nagori gate and called the police man, who came and starred at the situation and would nt do anything to help the korean lady get rid of this man. finally the guy's friend dragged him to go with him on his motor bike,these men were drinking at one of the liquor shops next to the police station(chowki)and saw these women dressed in salwar kameez without dupattas. It is sad, but at 11.00pm , off the tourist area,walking in the dark area with no vehicals,two women,no dupattas(scarfs covering their chest),Not many people,it is quite cold again for 2 days here, people head to bed early, well those who were there didnt help much anyways. Upsetting but i think it can happen any where.

Jan 13th, 2008, 07:29	#30
Casey Maha Guru Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 707	Selkie, I think that these are unfortunate events but that attacks on travellers are not that common or else there would not be as much publicity in the newspapers. I travelled around and used basic common sense and after an adjustment period (I had never travelled alone) felt very safe, particularly in Rajesthan. When I travelled alone I felt that people went out of their way to ensure that I was all right. I had families befriend me on trains and the father shooed off any male attention (wasn't much) that was sent my way. I recently returned from a trip to New Orleans for work. I was by myself and this past year New Orleans has the most murders of any city in the US. I was warned about the danger etc. and I was a bit leery of going even though I had been there before. Once I arrived the fear disappeared and I used common sense but lost the slight paranoia that was brought about by reading about all the violent crime in the area. Both in New Orleans and Rajesthan, tourists are a very valuable commodity. On the subject of being grabbed, as mentioned above, I think that some women would react in a very different manner than crying. Having been grabbed here at home I would say anger comes to mind...