Portuguese houses in Goa, are they an option?

birds

Greetings to all,

Like many others we are considering to buy a house in Goa. The so-called Portuguese houses appeal a lot but somebody told me that they are not really an option as it costs more to maintain them then to buy them.

How much of this is true? Does anybody on this forum have experience with Portuguese houses? Any suggestions/recommendations?

Thanks a lot!

cyberhippie

An old Portuguese house properly looked after are well adapted to local conditions. Complete refurbishment at the outset will see you with a decent property set in it's own grounds.
I'm not a builder but don't really see many extra issues with maintainance if looked after. labour is cheap enough in Goa as of now, getting the problems sorted out should'nt cost a fortune!!
Of course buying a new house you will have the wiring, plumbing ,etc already installed you might have to renew/fit this with an old Portuguese house!!

My main concern in buying an old Portuguese house would be property deeds or "clear title" as the locals call it. That is to say finding a property where no one in the family can lay claim to the house at a later date, Goan law allows family members to hold a stake in the house, until they're all onboard there is no way of selling the house, (some other more knowledgable members will explain more clearly) I think this makes hunting down a Portuguese house a little more problematic!!

New constructions generally won't have this problem!!

Still if you pull it off there's some damm fine houses in Goa, complete with mango, wells and other delights!!

kirpichik

Portugese house, " properly looked after" will cost a fortune, even 10 km from the beach.Now there's impossible to buy any RUIN for less than 10 lakhs, but Portugese house, like any other , can be refurbished. If you don't mind all sorts of crap falling in your mouth from the high tile roof while you happily snoring, or fighting with the monkeys tearing the tiles apart from above, or monsoon leaking thru the tiles, and you don't know where unless you take the whole roof apart - portugese house is a delight. Indian flat-roof homes need the top waterproofed at least once when you move in, but they make a nice terrace to drink your morning coffee on among potted buganvillias, or just dry your close on the line, to make it smell of sun and breeze, or spread your coconut shells on, to grill your chicken outside one day.
The wells are useless unless you connect a pump and add a tank on the roof,
but yes - they are charming!
Most important - is how much you want to spend on the house. When they say - yah, it has electricity - it means - a connection, and every wire inside is a haywire - you'll have to redo everything, and plumbing is a spout that comes to the house, portugese or indian. Labor is cheap in Goa - compared to the UK or the States - but I had to waterproof my flat terrace roof of 120m2 for 420 rupees a square meter! And I am a RESIDENT here for two years, not a newcomer!
Speaking og residency, by the way - I am an american, and nearly lost all my marbles, trying to figure out how to live in India without leaving the country every six months - WELL! The solution is simple, if you are an AMERICAN! You just get a 10 - year tourist visa from your state, and in India, when you arrive, you JUST COME to the FRRO office where you live and TELL THEM ( DO NOT ASK!!!) that you want to register. They will give you 3 copies of an application, you give them 3 color copies of your Passport with visa pageand 3 photos, and a week later you go back and pick up a pink book of 10 pages, called REGISTRATION REPORT and RESIDENTIAL PERMIT !
And you can live permamently, or visit your auntie in Dallas from time to time ,
for TEN YEARS and never register again!!!!! And fly the airlines at indian prices, get a bank card, buy gas for your home at the same price as locals - just don't attempt to vote. Too much is too much! This is a first time in years I felt lucky to be an american...!
Anyway - it is probably better to get a new home, like Cyberhippy suggested... Good luck!!!

goangoangone

Also, although labour may be cheap, it's difficult to get work done. Someone needs to be watching all the time.

__________________
GoanGoan......here

GoanCanuck

Kirpichik, the advice that you gave in your post is not only dangerous but it is seriously flawed.

Just because someone at the FRO in Panjim made a mistake and gave you a residents permit even though you were not eligible does not in any way give you any kind of legal standing. Residents permits have in the past and even today continue to get revoked when the files are reviewed by more knowledgeable officials.

Let me just tell you that every foreign national who is staying in Goa currently is having his/her files and antecedents examined by senior intelligence officials in Delhi due to certain developments that have taken place in Goa over the last few weeks.

Don't think that you will be automatically allowed to leave India and re-enter with your "resident permit". The immigration officials at Mumbai and Delhi airport have a better understanding of the relevant rules as compared to those at the FRO and they have the full authority to detain you and revoke your permit. If I was in your place I would not try to leave India and then re-enter. Why take a chance?

GoanCanuck

Speaking from my personal experience which in this matter is quite substantial there are significant hurdles to buying an old Portuguese era Goan house.

Let me document some of these obstacles,

1) Lack of a clear title. Goan families during the Portuguese rule were very big and every member had an equal right to the property irrespective of male or female. The problem now is that the descendants of the original owner are spread out across several countries all across the world. Many of these descendants do not visit India at all but they do not want to give up their claim to the property.

Even if you convince some of the members of the family, other members will oppose you out of sheer jealousy and old animosity which in Goan families gets transferred from one generation to the next.

2) The condition of most of these Portuguese era houses is very very bad. You will have to spend a considerable amount of money to restore the building. Depending on what type of luxury you are looking for this amount can be anywhere from Rs 15 lakhs to 1 crore.

3) Many of the owners of these type of houses have become very greedy during the last few years because of the interest shown by foreigners to buy these type of properties. I was quoted Rs 70 lakhs by one landlord for his crumbling mansion which has been unoccupied for the last 25 years!

indira

Point 1, 2, and 3, absolutely korrekt.

kirpichik

Dear GC,
being a MG member, you should be careful in your statements:" dangerous advice, seriously flowed"..."official at FRO made a mistake by giving me a residency permit for which I am not eligible", wich in ANY way gives me no legal standing" - sounds like they forgot to consult with GoanCanuck!!!
I have an american pssport with a TEN-YEAR visa in it, and when I recieved it November last Year in Chicago, the vice-counsul In Indian Consulate smiled: "Americans are lucky - the only ones getting a chance to live in India
for ten years! Go to FRO and register and you will recieve a Residency Permit - with a ten year multiple entry visa, you can enoy living in India and see the world!"
Should I write to him and say that GoanCanouk disagrees with him, and his words are not only dangerous and seriously flowed, but have no legal standing? Or should I assume that my actual experience (compared to GC hear-say grape vine info) is a complicated plot between the Indian Vice-Counsul in Chicago and Panjim FRO, giving me the 10-year multiple visa and Residency Permit - JUST TO CATCH ME AT THE BORDER and revoke my permit
for which they forgot to ask GoanCanouk, if I am eligible?

And what my residency permit has to do with my 10-yearvisa at the border, if I want to leave? Will they detain me there, waiting to hear what GC thinks??? I only hope that GoanCanouk understands that my story was not an ADVISE, I shared my hapinness with other IM-ers, who know how difficult it was for me to travel, due to my health, and now MY problem is solved, and I can enjoy my new life in my property in India, and since the Indian Counsul told me, only abot 400-500 americans come to India every year, may be a few of them can utilize my experience.
And by the way, when I bought my house 2 years ago(not Portugese, but Indian flat-roof), I had to : HAD TO hire a lawyer to do exactly the same: search the title, if anyone is objecting. It took him 3 mos, because ALL the owners and transactions from the beginning of the properties existence had to be presented by the seller, and checked by the owner, and finally I was finger-printed
along with the owner and his 2 daugthers, found in Bahrain and Bangalore, and became the happy ownner.
Also: are you, GoanCanouk, as MahaMember, allowed to insult Goan Indians by such statements as:" sheer jelousy and old animosity, which in Goan families gets transferred from one generation to the next!!!" You should be banned just for this!- from Goa!

goangoangone

We're not so lucky in the UK. The maximum visa I've heard of is 5 years. I only received a 1 year X but took it to the FRO and followed the same procedure.

dzibead

Here is what the Indian Embassy's website has to say about the ten-year visa:

"Ten (10) year visa is available only to US citizens under a bilateral arrangement. Irrespective of the duration of validity of visa, on each visit maximum period of stay in India is limited to 6 months (180 days). Multiple entry visas are given."

As Goancanuck pointed out, this visa does not permit the holder to reside in India continuously for ten years and does not confer "residency" status on the holder. If kirpichik got a "residency permit" that allows her to stay in India continuously for 10 years or more, then the permit was either based on some status other than holding one of the ten-year visas available to U.S. citizens or - more likely - was based on a bureaucratic screw-up. Or possibly kirpichik just misunderstands what her status really is. If she can evade detection by the Indian immigration authorities for ten years, more power to her, I guess, but I don't think anyone should assume that her experience correctly reflects what is actually the law.

God knows, thousands of people immigrate to the U.S. illegally and successfully avoid detection, too, sometimes for decades. But I don't think it's a good idea to presume to offer legal advice to others, as kirpichik is doing here, based on what appears to be either one's own fortuitous evasion of the law or one's misunderstanding of what the law actually is.

GoanCanuck

Kirpichik, the fact that you purchased a house in Goa and completed the formalities associated with the purchase suggests,

1) That you had completed your 183 days residency in India in one financial year

2) Based on your purchase of the house you were given a residents permit. You were given a residents permit because of the fact that you have purchased a house and want to retire in India and you have the funds to support your self, not because you have a 10 year tourist visa.

Hope this clears the confusion.

As far as the jealousy and animosity regarding property in Goan families is concerned you have to be a Goan to understand it and appreciate it. If you are not originally from Goa you will not understand the gravity of the situation. I did not mean to offend you in any manner and there is no need to get upset.

cyberhippie

Yeah cool it guys we've seen enough commotion in the last few days!!

Play nice!!!

birds

Hi all,

Just wanted to thank you all for all the information. I am new to this forum and was really pleasantly surprised how quick and how elaborate the answers were.

It seems that the ownership papers are a real hurdle whether you buy. I will start a new thread for that.

Thanks again all.

Cheers!

crvlvr

i think you have been misinformed. the official statistic is 468,000. Was this the same person who told you you could stay in India for 10 years (continuously) with your 10 year visa?

birds

Hi all,

Further to my thread 'Portuguese houses in Goa, are they an option' many mentioned that before even talking about the upkeep of such place there is the issue of getting a clear title to the property.

I have read (elsewhere) that this is not only the issue with old houses but also with buying land. Is this true?

Also learned that even lawyers can be 100% sure that the title is clear. Is this true too?

If so, what are the options? How can one protect oneself, besides buying new properties (and I read that they too can be on disputed land).

Does anybody knows what happens if suddenly a distant family member turns up and claims he/she owns the property?

Lots of questions but after my first thread I am confident that there will be lots of you who can offer insights!

Thanks in advance.