Foreign owned property in Goa, (part Two)

capt_mahajan · Jul 10th, 2007, 12:06

Heres some recent 2004 stats:

number of tourists (domestic & foreign) visiting Goa: about 2 million every year
- number of foreign tourists visiting Goa: about 200,000 every year
- number of British backpackers visiting Goa: about 20,000 every year

source: http://www.neoncarrot.co.uk/h_abouti...#touri sm_goa

An older world bank report 1998

forGoa, it (tourism) generates 13.7 percent of the state's net domestic product, 7 percent ofemployment, and 7 percent of state tax revenues. (There are also some interesting tables on tourist expenses there.. albeit dated)

edit: oops forget the link here

This includes all tourism, domestic and foreign.

Highly doubtful if the small percentage of foreigners buying property in Goa are contributing in any significant percentage to the economy. Implying this is kind of colonial, in my view.

capt_mahajan · Jul 10th, 2007, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryjames

I personally employ anywhere from one to three persons on a daily basis. I pay rather more than the pittances I see advised on some of the posts here.

In addition I (and my wife of course) have paid the persons who built our house, who made the car, who supply the food, electricity, water, booze etc, etc.

Good for you and for Goa.

But if I, an Indian national, was to agree to do all this in a country of my choice, would I be justified in proclaiming my right to live there? They are two different things.

Maybe not you, but others are using this argument to imply that the goan folk cannot survive without this.

dzibead · Jul 10th, 2007, 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by capt_mahajan

Implying this is kind of colonial, in my view.

That's how it strikes me, too. More than a whiff of "the white man's burden" IMHO, and a bit of patronizing noblesse oblige. It drives me nuts when people make these arguments and I'm not even Indian much less Goan!

Quote:

Originally Posted by capt_mahajan

Good for you and for Goa.

But if I, an Indian national, was to agree to do all this in a country of my choice, would I be justified in proclaiming my right to live there?

It would certainly get you absolutely nowhere in the U.S. or the U.K.! So it never ceases to amaze me that some people - particularly from the U.K. it seems - believe this should suffice for India.

The supposedly wonderful contributions to the Goan economy that certain foreign nationals are wont to invoke to as justification for why they should be allowed to reside permanently in India or why they should be allowed to buy property there when they don't actually qualify under the FEMA and RBI rules are all well and good as far as they go, but realistically they don't amount to a drop in the bucket and people who think otherwise are just kidding themselves.

federica · Jul 10th, 2007, 16:34

The problem of the whole topic seems to be the differentiation between foreigners who become a part of the society, benefit to the local economy in a legal way, take part in the social life, maybe do volunteer work etc. and the ones who just try to take advantage of the location, without any respect for the locals, the environment and the culture.

I don't think the question is whether a foreigner contributes with a lot of money as a kind of development aid. The equation more money = more benefit doesn't work. The small work of many people can bring more benefit that one huge investment, and I feel it is better if 20 people are happily employed than if 100 get abused in a greedy company.

Still lots of Goans from the villages work abroad, on cruise ships, in hotels in the Gulf countries or elsewhere to support their families in Goa.

And although there were no slums, poverty was there, although people weren't starving as it was common to grow your own rice.

The Nigerians on the student visa is an issue that is common worldwide (and it is not something special Nigerian)... as it is the whole topic. The pattern of foreigners living abroad, not integrated, active in unsocial and illegal business and taking advantage of the possibilities happens all over the world, unfortunately.

I just would feel pity if this whole issue would lead to a kind of hostility against foreigners in Goa in general, and I hope the medias will cover it with the necessary differentiation.

Noni · Jul 10th, 2007, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoanCanuck

You are seriously misinformed if you think that the people of Goa would starve without foreign nationals visiting Goa. The fact of the matter is that as per the data from the Tourism Department less than 15% of the tourists visiting Goa are from outside India

It is this type of a statement that has angered many people in Goa. To say that it is because of "I" or because of "Me" or because of "Us that the people of Goa owe their existence to is incredibly naive.

Let me clear some of your misconceptions. Goa was a prosperous place much before Europeans started coming in large numbers through charter flights in 1985 when the first Condor flight arrived in Goa. Prior to 1985 the Europeans who came to Goa were mainly hippies and backpackers and they came in very small numbers. For example in the year 1974 there were no slums or shanty towns in Goa. This was in stark contrast to the rest of India which had slums in every city.

Now you may ask me how did people in Goa survive prior to "the golden era when charters from Europe started coming in".
Well, Goa which was not a state but a Union territory at that time was home to the wealthiest people in India who were in the iron ore mining industry. They were not involved in tourism in any capacity.

At that time Japan was buying huge amounts of iron ore from Goa. The wealthiest person in India at that time as per the Income Tax authorities in Delhi was a Goan staying in Vasco who was the largest iron ore exporter in India. This is not a figment of my imagination but a fact reported by the Times of India and Indian Express.

The high school in Goa that I attended had many many Goan students who came in chauffeur driven Mercedes, Toyota's and Datsuns back then. At that time Goa had more Merecedes cars than Bangalore!

The tourism boom of the last 10-15 years has benefited non-Goans far far more than Goans.

Still don't believe me? Since you are in Goa I shall give you something to investigate.

Just find out by whichever means possible who owns the following leading hotels in Goa. What you will find will clear any lingering doubts that you may have.

1) The Leela
2) Fort Aguada Beach resort
3) Caravela Beach resort
4) Park Hyatt
5) Radisson White Sand
6) Varca beach resort
7) Majorda Beach resort
8) Taj Exotica
9) Goa Marriott Resort
10 Club Mahindra

It is not who owns them, but how many Goans do they actually employ. I have been to five of the hotels, and most of the staff I have spoken to come from outside Goa. I must say although there are a fair amount of Indian businessmen and some Indian families there, the majority of the clientel are foreigners. We found exactly the same in Mumbai.

Barryjames · Jul 10th, 2007, 18:23

Having become ensconced in the site now I thought it better to clarify my position and ethnic stance for future reference, just to ward off any preconceived erroneous supposition. My wife is Goan and I am Scottish. (PIO) I have no axe to grind about any race or any persons origin.

~ Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood.
.....WS.....

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 10th, 2007, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryjames

Having become ensconced in the site now I thought it better to clarify my position and ethnic stance for future reference, just to ward off any preconceived erroneous supposition. My wife is Goan and I am Scottish.

OMG....I see another Nick in the wings...

Noni · Jul 10th, 2007, 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoanCanuck

You are seriously misinformed if you think that the people of Goa would starve without foreign nationals visiting Goa. The fact of the matter is that as per the data from the Tourism Department less than 15% of the tourists visiting Goa are from outside India

It is this type of a statement that has angered many people in Goa. To say that it is because of "I" or because of "Me" or because of "Us that the people of Goa owe their existence to is incredibly naive.

Let me clear some of your misconceptions. Goa was a prosperous place much before Europeans started coming in large numbers through charter flights in 1985 when the first Condor flight arrived in Goa. Prior to 1985 the Europeans who came to Goa were mainly hippies and backpackers and they came in very small numbers. For example in the year 1974 there were no slums or shanty towns in Goa. This was in stark contrast to the rest of India which had slums in every city.

Now you may ask me how did people in Goa survive prior to "the golden era when charters from Europe started coming in".
Well, Goa which was not a state but a Union territory at that time was home to the wealthiest people in India who were in the iron ore mining industry. They were not involved in tourism in any capacity.

At that time Japan was buying huge amounts of iron ore from Goa. The wealthiest person in India at that time as per the Income Tax authorities in Delhi was a Goan staying in Vasco who was the largest iron ore exporter in India. This is not a figment of my imagination but a fact reported by the Times of India and Indian Express.

The high school in Goa that I attended had many many Goan students who came in chauffeur driven Mercedes, Toyota's and Datsuns back then. At that time Goa had more Merecedes cars than Bangalore!

The tourism boom of the last 10-15 years has benefited non-Goans far far more than Goans.

Still don't believe me? Since you are in Goa I shall give you something to investigate.

Just find out by whichever means possible who owns the following leading hotels in Goa. What you will find will clear any lingering doubts that you may have.

1) The Leela
2) Fort Aguada Beach resort
3) Caravela Beach resort
4) Park Hyatt
5) Radisson White Sand
6) Varca beach resort
7) Majorda Beach resort
8) Taj Exotica
9) Goa Marriott Resort
10 Club Mahindra

Any misgivings soon evaporated when I read the current court case of the Doyen of Indian Industry and Trade Wings, in this mornings Economic times. How many people have been
conned in this fiasco at Bogmallo Beach.
We have just turned full circle yet again. - we will have to agree to disagree.

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 10th, 2007, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noni

Any misgivings soon evaporated when I read the current court case of the Doyen of Indian Industry and Trade Wings, in this mornings Economic times. How many people have been conned in this fiasco at Bogmallo Beach.
We have just turned full circle yet again. - we will have to agree to disagree.

I didn't get you...who got conned

..its simple case of dispute between two companies..

case is between Mr.Kerkar, who is Regarded as Doyen of Indian Hotel Industry Vs. Trade Wings Hotel, which is Mumbai based hospitality company...

I

a_f_d · Jul 10th, 2007, 23:01

dzibead said

Quote:

why they should be allowed to buy property there when they don't actually qualify under the FEMA and RBI rules

well there's no reason why they should - has someone suggested otherwise?
otoh if people do qualify should they be impeded?

AndyD 8-)#

a_f_d · Jul 10th, 2007, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by capt_mahajan

Good for you and for Goa.

But if I, an Indian national, was to agree to do all this in a country of my choice, would I be justified in proclaiming my right to live there? They are two different things.

Maybe not you, but others are using this argument to imply that the goan folk cannot survive without this.

well if you were rich enough (which is really very rich) you could live in the UK, you could even maintain domicile elsewhere and not pay any UK tax.
It's a funny old world!

AndyD 8-)#

Nick-H · Jul 11th, 2007, 00:02

Quote:

has someone suggested otherwise?

Just a whole industry. And the people who have or would like to buy into what that industry is selling

Quote:

otoh if people do qualify should they be impeded?

No. The situation of Barryjames, for instance, is very different to that of the many who consider Because I want to to be a good enough reason for India to welcome them as migrants.

Nick-H · Jul 11th, 2007, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by shashank.aggarwal

OMG....I see another Nick in the wings...

Who are you calling Scottish?

dzibead · Jul 11th, 2007, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_f_d

dzibead said
well there's no reason why they should - has someone suggested otherwise?

Well, yes, they have. Haven't you actually read this thread, both Part 1 and Part 2?

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_f_d

otoh if people do qualify should they be impeded?
AndyD 8-)#

No, and I don't think anyone has suggested that they should be. The focus of this thread (both parts) has been been whether people actually qualify and what qualifying entails. Somehow in the last few pages, people have started talking about tourism instead of about the acquisition of real property by foreign nationals. And Barryjames has raised his own situation, which, as a PIO married to a Goan, does allow him to acquire real property, but since the acquisitions that are the focus of this thread have not been by people whose situation is similar to his, and since no one has suggested that a person in his position is not legally permitted to acquire real property, his circumstances aren't particularly pertinent to this discussion either, which has actually centered on "garden-variety" foreign nationals who just get a bee in their bonnet that they want to acquire a retirement home or vacation "villa" in Goa and think they can do it regardless of what the FEMA and RBA regulations say.

Oops! Cross-posted with Nick, who just made the same point in a less long-winded way!

shashank.aggarwal · Jul 11th, 2007, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

Who are you calling Scottish?

oh..I was calling him another English man

Jul 10th, 2007, 12:06	#481
capt_mahajan Infidel Sufi Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: styx Posts: 13,608	Heres some recent 2004 stats: number of tourists (domestic & foreign) visiting Goa: about 2 million every year - number of foreign tourists visiting Goa: about 200,000 every year - number of British backpackers visiting Goa: about 20,000 every year source: http://www.neoncarrot.co.uk/h_abouti...#touri sm_goa An older world bank report 1998 forGoa, it (tourism) generates 13.7 percent of the state's net domestic product, 7 percent ofemployment, and 7 percent of state tax revenues. (There are also some interesting tables on tourist expenses there.. albeit dated) edit: oops forget the link here This includes all tourism, domestic and foreign. Highly doubtful if the small percentage of foreigners buying property in Goa are contributing in any significant percentage to the economy. Implying this is kind of colonial, in my view. __________________ . Outside the machine

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federica Maha Guru Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Bavaria Posts: 1,774	The problem of the whole topic seems to be the differentiation between foreigners who become a part of the society, benefit to the local economy in a legal way, take part in the social life, maybe do volunteer work etc. and the ones who just try to take advantage of the location, without any respect for the locals, the environment and the culture. I don't think the question is whether a foreigner contributes with a lot of money as a kind of development aid. The equation more money = more benefit doesn't work. The small work of many people can bring more benefit that one huge investment, and I feel it is better if 20 people are happily employed than if 100 get abused in a greedy company. Still lots of Goans from the villages work abroad, on cruise ships, in hotels in the Gulf countries or elsewhere to support their families in Goa. And although there were no slums, poverty was there, although people weren't starving as it was common to grow your own rice. The Nigerians on the student visa is an issue that is common worldwide (and it is not something special Nigerian)... as it is the whole topic. The pattern of foreigners living abroad, not integrated, active in unsocial and illegal business and taking advantage of the possibilities happens all over the world, unfortunately. I just would feel pity if this whole issue would lead to a kind of hostility against foreigners in Goa in general, and I hope the medias will cover it with the necessary differentiation.

Jul 10th, 2007, 18:23	#486
Barryjames Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Goa Posts: 93	Having become ensconced in the site now I thought it better to clarify my position and ethnic stance for future reference, just to ward off any preconceived erroneous supposition. My wife is Goan and I am Scottish. (PIO) I have no axe to grind about any race or any persons origin. ~ Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. .....WS.....