Foreign owned property in Goa, (Part One)

Paagla Dashu · Oct 20th, 2006, 21:52

Luca,

I really do not want to give you an opportunity to post more provocative rants and screams but I do think you need not be so presumptuous to think that you are "fighting on behalf of the silent majority"of Indians.

If you are frustrated by the Indian experience - I understand; if you want to criticise things in India, I understand - what I do not understand and find objectionable is your patronising attitude and tendency to insult most institutions in India including the judiciary.

There is really no need to be so bitter, is there? If there is a problem, instead of complaining if you ask for suggestions you may get better solutions.

GoanCanuck · Oct 21st, 2006, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca

I love India and the Indian people, but will not be cowed down by threats from some in this forum. I owe it to the 'silent Indian majority'

Really? hmm............

crvlvr · Oct 21st, 2006, 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

This is turning into a paranoid conspiracy theorists' heaven.

Well said. I had a good laugh reading some of posts.

I agree. the newest/biggest racket in town is the NGO business. Especially those funded by foreign sources. They can get away with it mainly due to unobservability by the funder. Organizations that are funded by Indian agencies are typically scrutinized intensly and are usually less corrupt.

The Goa Foundation specifically does not accept funds from private or foreign sources.

And they are not the only game in town. Here is what another NGO has to say about the environmental impact of tourism to Goa.
http://www.anandaproject.org/mandrek...rismingoa.html

dzibead · Oct 21st, 2006, 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

Well, I for one, have totally lost track of what you are trying to say on behalf of the silent Indian majority...

Not surprising, given how incoherent the comments were.

Paagla Dashu · Oct 21st, 2006, 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca

http://oheraldo.in/node/19724

In India you cannot cast apsersions against court decisions(so much for free speech). If I was Indian and living in India-even saying this much would be scary. Yet, the Indian courts seem to think that they are widely respected. Same with the Indian NGO(non governmental organisations). If you get on their bad side, they team up with the courts to harass the common man. It's not much of a democracy as the people have elected the present government whether for the better or worse and the courts should respect the peoples decisions. I have even heard rumblings from the ruling parties in Delhi regarding this issue...

WoW, what wisdom!

Pray, please illuminate us and let me know in which country in this world one can cast wild aspersions against court decisions or insult the judiciary with immunity? I would love to live there.

Btw, I would not be so sure that not being an Indian or not living in India is a fail-proof shield from behind which one can hurl insults at the institutions of a sovereign nation......

Paagla Dashu · Oct 21st, 2006, 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

Well, I for one, have totally lost track of what you are trying to say on behalf of the silent Indian majority...

And what on earth is this silent Indian majority?

Presumably there is a vocal Indian minority as well? who are they?

And PLEASE, PLEASE do not try and put Arundhati Roy and someone who bought an illegal house knowingly/unknowingly in the same bracket.

snowcrab · Oct 21st, 2006, 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by crvlvr

And they are not the only game in town. Here is what another NGO has to say about the environmental impact of tourism to Goa.
http://www.anandaproject.org/mandrek...rismingoa.html

Interesting link.

I used to go to one restaurant where the waiter and I got into some long talks. He told me that he didn't feel all that comfortable in Goa any more because the heavy traffic, the garbage, the noise, the drinking and the high costs for everything his family needed like water and fish. For him all this was very unpleasant and was nowhere close to being offset by the tourist dollars that trickled down to his level. He told me his family of four needed a minimum of 6000 rupees to live decently and it was sometimes very hard to come by. The big four and five stars made the money, but everybody had to put up with what these guests did outside the hotels and as far as he was concerned the quality of life for ordinary Goans had not improved with the big tourist boom.

I was paying 6000 rs a month for rent alone.

crvlvr · Oct 21st, 2006, 06:51

An excerpt from the link I posted earlier: http://www.anandaproject.org/mandrek...rismingoa.html

Quote:

It wasn't until the mid-eighties and the arrival of charter flights to Goa that changes really began to take place. The charter flights brought a new breed of tourist who had money and demanded western amenities. This quickly caught the attention of foreign investors and tour companies, who wasted no time in building hotels, swimming pools and even golf courses to meet the tourists' growing expectations and demands. The government, slightly fed up with hippies, celebrated the arrival of the high-spending tourists and the foreign exchange they would bring.

However, very little profit reached the local people. The majority of the money spent by package tourists goes to foreign hotel owners or the European tour companies who arrange the holidays. When the locals do succeed in profiting from tourism, it is normally privileged commercial groups that benefit, not the people who have to suffer the negative consequences.

Accustomed to high standards of living in the West, tourists rarely consider the ecological price of their comforts. Swimming pools and golf courses use a huge amount of water, a resource that is very limited, especially during the dry season in April and May. While tourists swim in pools, locals often have to put up with water shortages and live in danger of the water table dropping, which could have fatal consequences on Goan agriculture. Besides water, hotels consume vast amounts of building materials and electricity, and create a lot of waste.

Litter has become a major problem in Goa and there is no infrastructure to deal with it. It ends up in piles, either left to rot or to be burnt. One of the biggest problems is the use of plastic bottles used for mineral water. Most tourists drink several bottles a dayand discard them, left for somebody else to deal with. More often than not they are burnt, adding toxic fumes into the atmosphere.

Discontentment from locals, rising inequality and poverty is beginning to take its toll. Levels of crime and theft are rising, as is greed and corruption. Behind the smiles of local people, a sense of uneasiness is creeping in as the state becomes more corrupt. The police force and tourism department are becoming feared by everyone working in the tourist industry; bribes are often paid simply to stay out of trouble, whether there is any reason to be in trouble or not.

dzibead · Oct 21st, 2006, 07:18

Ahem - yes - on this subject, see my post #47 on this thread, from four months ago and the book mentioned in my post #458 on this thread on 28 Sept 06.

Nick-H · Oct 21st, 2006, 12:15

Actually, PD, although there are restrictions on what may be published, if not said, before or during any specific trial, and as long as you don't fall foul of any other law such as defamation, inciting racial hatred (to name a couple of random examples, and I'm not a lawyer), you can say pretty much what you like about the British Judiciary and courts.

So, good luck getting the visa

GoanCanuck · Oct 21st, 2006, 13:17

Quote:

Accustomed to high standards of living in the West, tourists rarely consider the ecological price of their comforts. Swimming pools and golf courses use a huge amount of water, a resource that is very limited, especially during the dry season in April and May. While tourists swim in pools, locals often have to put up with water shortages and live in danger of the water table dropping

This is a fact. Prior to the early 90's, there used to be a water scarcity only in the summer months but now there is an acute water shortage in Goa 12 months a year. I remember in 1980 the only swimming pools in Goa were those attached to the Fort Aguada beach resort and Oberoi Bogmalo. But now you have even non-starred hotels in Goa with swimming pools. In fact installing and maintaining swimming pools has become a very lucrative business.

Paagla Dashu · Oct 21st, 2006, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

Actually, PD, although there are restrictions on what may be published, if not said, before or during any specific trial, and as long as you don't fall foul of any other law such as defamation, inciting racial hatred (to name a couple of random examples, and I'm not a lawyer), you can say pretty much what you like about the British Judiciary and courts.

So, good luck getting the visa

Actually Nick, you may want to check that - raising questions about or discussing or apealing against a decision made by a judiciary is fine in most countries including India - but insinuating that court decisions might be motivated by ffactors other than judicial principles will be illegal in most countries.

Also In India one can criticise Government policies or Ministers and not be branded as a "commie", for example.

Nick-H · Oct 21st, 2006, 14:54

illegal in the sense of criminal prosecution, in UK, no.

But suggesting that the judge might have been bribed, or acting in the interests of his cousin's husband's father ...that could result in an action for defamation. Or to the judge ending up behind bars!

Generally the British press feels very free to criticise, and does criticise, the actions of the British judiciary. Yes, there are limits prescribed by law, but, in general, free speach is still alive in my mother country. For now, at least...

Paagla Dashu · Oct 21st, 2006, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,Generally the British press feels very free to criticise, and does criticise, the actions of the British judiciary. Yes, there are limits prescribed by law, but, in general, free speach is still alive in my mother country. For now, at least...

As does the Indian press as well.

Note the word criticise - that's different from insulting insinuations. We are not talking about challenging a decision, we are talking about statements that imply lack of fairness or other motives behind decisions. It is the latter that falls in the "contempt of court" category in most civil societies.

Nick-H · Oct 21st, 2006, 17:13

Nahhh... you could do that in UK.

But a few posts ago I was talking about closing this thread because it has got so far off course, and here I am arguing this offtopic point with you

So I think we'd better call it off for now!

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Oct 20th, 2006, 21:52	#721
Paagla Dashu Unreasonably Unreasonable Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Where They Wear Clogs Posts: 1,222	Luca, I really do not want to give you an opportunity to post more provocative rants and screams but I do think you need not be so presumptuous to think that you are "fighting on behalf of the silent majority"of Indians. If you are frustrated by the Indian experience - I understand; if you want to criticise things in India, I understand - what I do not understand and find objectionable is your patronising attitude and tendency to insult most institutions in India including the judiciary. There is really no need to be so bitter, is there? If there is a problem, instead of complaining if you ask for suggestions you may get better solutions.

Oct 21st, 2006, 07:18	#729
dzibead res ipsa loquitur Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern California Posts: 2,885	Ahem - yes - on this subject, see my post #47 on this thread, from *four months ago* and the book mentioned in my post #458 on this thread on 28 Sept 06.

Oct 21st, 2006, 12:15	#730
Nick-H This is just a cameo appearance Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 36,213	Actually, PD, although there are restrictions on what may be published, if not said, before or during any specific trial, and as long as you don't fall foul of any other law such as defamation, inciting racial hatred (to name a couple of random examples, and I'm not a lawyer), you can say pretty much what you like about the British Judiciary and courts. So, good luck getting the visa

Oct 21st, 2006, 14:54	#733
Nick-H This is just a cameo appearance Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 36,213	illegal in the sense of criminal prosecution, in UK, no. But suggesting that the judge might have been bribed, or acting in the interests of his cousin's husband's father ...that could result in an action for defamation. Or to the judge ending up behind bars! Generally the British press feels very free to criticise, and does criticise, the actions of the British judiciary. Yes, there are limits prescribed by law, but, in general, free speach is still alive in my mother country. For now, at least...

Oct 21st, 2006, 17:13	#735
Nick-H This is just a cameo appearance Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 36,213	Nahhh... you could do that in UK. But a few posts ago I was talking about closing this thread because it has got so far off course, and here I am arguing this offtopic point with you So I think we'd better call it off for now!