Foreign owned property in Goa, (Part One)

Goandentist

Guys,

Lets look at the controversy a little closer now. The Goa Govt at no point has said that they are against foreigners buying properties in Goa but dont want to wrong people to setup base here. Let me explain more... my banker said to me that a couple or Russian guys are buying huge properties in Anjuna. Their bank account has funds being transferred to the tune of 500,000$ a week that they cant account for. Can you please explain to me " how expensive " is Goa that you need this kind of money coming in ? In local circles it is know that the drug mafia is run by the Russians and the Nigerians. Do we as Goans want these kinds of people to get in ?

So who is going to police these people. Lets talk about people coming to spend 6 months in Goa. I have loads of English friends in Calangute who tell me that the only reason you are here is because it is cheap ! No one is contributing to the economy. If you go to a restauraunt or use a taxi its because you need to do so. How else are you going to move around and feed yourself ? Don't locals do it ?

The bigger issue is people coming to Goa on a 3 week holiday find it very cheap to buy property and live here, and builders would like to cash in on this. Now whose fault is it if you did not read the rules properly. Your 182 days in Goa should have a purpose, and you deciding to settle down here also needs a reason.

I think what the Government is doing is very fair. It keeps the genuine people in and the "builders lobby" at bay.

__________________
Dr. Ambert Pimenta
www.goadentist.com

The India Mike Dental thread

dzibead

So people from elsewhere in Britain are actually retiring to Birmingham? Well, pardon me for saying so, but Anyway, this comment strikes me as a bit priggish and smarmy.

I don't know what rock you folks have been under, but "outsiders" - typically far more affluent folks -- have been buying property for some time now in places like rural Cornwall and the West Highlands and Islands in Scotland for holiday homes and "retirement" homes and and it has affected the local ecomony in ways that have had a net negative impact on the local people, often to the point of crisis. Yes, the few lucky locals who can sell up their property for some inflated price initially benefit and there can be a short-term up-tick in the fortunes of people like local builders who do construction and re-modeling. But the long-term effects of this kind of "gentrification" usually result in locals being priced out of the market, a strain on local resources and infrastructure (water, power, sewer, etc.), and the relegation of the locals to a lower "service sector" of the economy.

And the strain on local resources that accompanies any influx of new people is exacerbated when the newcomers are more affluent and put higher demands on those resources, as Westerners, who are notable "resource hogs," will invariably do. After all, as you yourselves admit, you are not going there to "live lightly on the land." You're going to buy something the average local couldn't dream of buying, with amenitied the average local couldn't afford. And because the cost of living there is -- and will likely remain -- cheap for you, you will be able to live comfortably, to put it mildly, on much less than the same amenities would cost you in the UK. But the increased cost of living that results from an influx of affluent foreignors will make it more expensive for the locals to survive, and a two-tier economy is likely to result, with the locals occupying the lower "service sector." This is not a true increase in the standard of living "for everybody" that one of you claimed above. Just look at the economic division between the "locals" and the incomers in any community that attacts affluent outsiders (whether retirees or vacation-home owners) like Aspen or Vail in Colorado, or Santa Fe, New Mexico. Comments to the effect that it's really wonderful for the local economy in Goa to have retired foreigners buying property and spending money there, or that they are buying properties that the locals wouldn't (or couldn't afford to) buy anyway, demonstrate complete obliviousness to these economic realities, and are utterly self-serving and self-absorbed.

The Indian Govt has every right to regulate who can and cannot purchase real property in the country. And one factor they have every right to consider when setting their policies is what impact the acquisition of real property by relatively affluent foreigners is likely to have on local communities. If that cramps your style, well, that's just too bad. The Government of India isn't setting it's immigration and property-acquisition policies to make a tiny bunch of retired and/or vacationing foreigners happy.

Unless you have some proper legal status that permits you to buy property (citizen, NRI, PIO, legal resident because of work visa status, or marriage to an Indian citizen, or the like) you can't buy real property legally. People who simply hold tourist visas are not in the class of persons who can buy property legally. Some people think they can overstay their tourist visas and then buy property because they then "satisfy" the requirement of having been in India for more than 181 days, but this is not correct. You have to have a legal right to have been in the country for that long (i.e., you have to have some visa/immigration status other than the tourist visa) in order to satisfy the criterion for buying real property. As goangoangone said, there's no problem with foreigners who meet all the Govenment's requirements, but if you hold only a tourist visa and do not fall into any of the other categories, you just can't buy property legally. Why anybody who doesn't meet the Government's requirement requirements should have an air of entitlement about what he or she should or should not be allowed to do is beyond me.

As the holder of a tourist visa, one doesn't even have an absolute, unqualified right to even enter the country -- you can be turned away at the border, or have the length of any given stay in the country curtailed. So why would the holder of a mere tourist visa assume he or she had legal right to acquire real property there?

emsirrah

Sarcasm and nit picking now that you have lived in India for just over 2 minutes Nick H. "I live here too" - you have only just got your stuff out of customs
50% commitment - yes not 2 weeks - pay our dues and demands on time - but we are retirees with oddles of money to spend in the locality of our choice be it Goa - UK - Spain - or my other home in Australia - the choice is ours and I don't have to suffer the Monsoon.
When we bought in Australia we were told we could not buy "old" but had to buy new so that the kids in Australia could afford the older properties - which I quite agree with - so we bought new and that is what we have done in Goa.
We only spent what we could afford to lose in Goa (eg the price of a new Ford car in the UK) on a flat as we thought something like this would surface sometime but we have done our 183 days and are in the process of having it certified. If it all goes down the pan we are quite happy to give our flat to a Goan friend (and I mean FRIEND) but we can still enjoy it for our winter months.

dzibead

This remark is totally unwarranted and off the mark, especially for for a "first post."

emsirrah

Goandentist - without going into a diatribe like dzibead would you please explain your statement:-
"no one is contributing to the economy" with regard to 6 month stayers in Goa. If they are not contributing to the economy why have you a dental practice in Calangute which is mainly for tourists - looking at your price list on the web my Goan friends could not afford to come to you neither could they afford to holiday in the Caribbean (have you just been there?).
Not picking on you but want you to justify this statement.

capt_mahajan

i am wondering, do some foreigners visiting india expect special treatment, including the sanction to break laws?

when i visit other countries, i contribute to their economy. do i expect special treatment there? should i?

dzibead

Good question, capt! It certainly looks that way to me.

emsirrah

dzibead

Warranted - yes
First Post - no
On New IM - yes

dzibead

First post or not (and if not your first, you must have re-registered on the "new" IM with a different name, because the "new" IM is the same as the "old" IM), but the remark was still unwarranted.

emsirrah

I havn't broken the law - my INDIAN lawyer - builder - advisor - banker et al has broken it by telling us it is all OK and you can go ahead and buy this - land - apartment - villa - hotel - bar etc.
If you came to the UK and asked a lawyer for his advise he would give it to you - charge you for it - and it would be legal. That is what it is all about in UK not underhanded and loaded with bribes and backhanders to this and that person. We do not expect to be told lies when we buy property in which ever country we go to. I was not told lies in Australia or Spain and have been quite happy with what I have bought but India is a different kettle of fish.

emsirrah

ok - didn't know I had to answer to you but I will tell you. Just been travelling for 12 months and lost my yahoo account due to not opening it for 3 months - sorry forgot - so busy having a life instead of being on the internet - so just had to re-register with everything.

dzibead

Well, you may have a good "advice of counsel" defense if they try to nail you!

dzibead

No, you don't have to "answer to" me. It was just my observation that your comment showed up as a first post.

Goandentist

My good friend I am a Goan and where I choose to own and run a business is my purogative. You may be surprised that I do have a big Goan clientelle as well (the locals are not "poor"), but justifying anything on a public forum is not what I am going to do.

You bought a property in Goa .... because its cheap. I have no problems with you or a million of the likes of you coming and living in Goa. In what way are you helping the economy. Have you invested in developing industry of providing jobs to local people. Taking a taxi and eating in a restaurant is what thousands of Goans do everyday, so whats your contribution ! Or maybe you want to setup an english pub or restaurant to "cash in" on the booming tourist industry. I dont have a problem with that either. You have worked your days my friend and want to settle down quietly in Goa, go on and do that.

The debate here is on whether you have bought your property the legal way in Goa. If you have , cheers and enjoy the sun ; if not you might be in a bit of trouble. I am sure you have been "warned" that all that seems is not so in India. There is so much information on the web, go through it . You will see that laws are in place for buying property legally in India.

Goa's economy of fuelled by toursits, and not "property buyers". What the govt is saying is enjoy the sun and return back for a few weeks. If you want to invest in India read the guide book first before investing.

We again welcome you to IndiaMike !

cyberhippie

Well I think I'll play devils advocate here but not to offend, I hope I'll make some fresh points for all concerned!!

Firstly the Goan expat brigade, I get the feeling you are feeling a bit duped, threatened and see this as an attack on foriegners in Goa. I don't see it that way and I'll explain why!!

If as others have pointed out, if the rules have been applied both in the 183 days and application to the RBI made and honoured by said body you have nothing to worry about!!

The fact remains that very many foreigners bought properties via the back door, via dodgy lawyers and builders and setting up false companies to attain residency status!!
These are the people under scrutiny, if you were unfortunate to buy under these circumstances I feel for you but the property scams of Goa have been around for years and are well known. It's the buyers responsibilty to guage the country he is buying in and to acertain the facts under the law and proceed from there!
That dodgy lwayers etc exist in Goa is also well known and very many people avail themselves of this "grey" market to get a foothold in Goa! These are the facts of life in Goa and should be deeply considered before entering into a "free lunch" property deal!
I've been talking about these pitfalls for a long time!!

It falls to the buyer to be sure of the middle men he employs and have a real understanding of their right to buy as a foriegner in India, failure to do so, it looks like, could cost some people!!

Next your impact on the economy, well I think it over simplified to say property buyers contribute nothing to the local economy, tiles, gyp board, paint, cement,wiring, fuel, house maids, shops, builders etc etc are all things that are involved in building or maintaining a house and somehow, somewhere that's keeping someone in a job!!

What some have mentioned here is the percieved benefits in the eyes of the locals, all the above services are now asking a little more to build a house for a local or supply the materials, perhaps there's a knock on efect at the market, there's more money around prices go up, landscapes are changed and slowly they see their housing market skyrocketing beond their means!!
These and other issues wil be seen as a negative points to the influx of property buyers!! Probably as a lot of the wealth created, like anywhere else isn't evenly distributed!!

Lastly this is by no means an attack on foriegners, this is part and parcel of Goan and Indian life, India lived for a long time in "civil service anarchy" nepitism and circumnavigation of property building laws was rife!!
Many now are seeing properties siezed and demolshed as illegal structures, as they were built outside the regulations and with the help of corruption. Pick up any paper anywhere in India and you will read about this!!
Even in Goa buildings built inside the coastal protection zone with the patronage of someone on the Municipal council are often torn down months/year later when the deception is uncovered!!

People who were duped or willing employed the grey market will perhaps see the same harsh treatment I don't wish it on anyone but as a traveller in Goa for a long long time I would think long and hard before entering into the property marker!!
This is not to say that it can't be done but the pitfalls are numerous!!


So to the other side, about Cornwall, Scotland, holiday homes and the impact on the local economy whether in Goa or elsewhere in the beautiful spots of the Globe!

I found myself nodding in agreement with Nick H and Dzbead and others about the impact this is having on the local population as I see it all the time in Goa when I'm there, I agree with Goandentist when he says the benefits are negated by rising prices in the local economy!! I agree this blueprint for the coastal regions of the world has been disasterous for many of the local populations and I agree the same mistakes seem to being made in Goa!!

However there is one salient point worth bringing to the table when we feel sad for the down trodden villagers of Cornwall, Scotland, Provence, Ibiza and now Goa, the people who start the ball rolling in all these places are the locals themselves with their heads turned, by the buzz of financial opportunity, there's no compunction to sell to foriegners for record profit, no real need for the spiralling costs, it's pure and simple human greed that starts things off. In the highlands of Scotland it was the same, there was no idea of keeping the home hearth burning for future generations. Taking the hard cash to invest in life, right now was seen as the better option, far better than keeping the family home or sense of community!

We took the migrating money and ran, as many are doing now in coastal Goa and in turn some at least have no truck with the idea of a lost community or any other such grand ideas, Their taking what they can when they can!! I don't blame them but is it absolutely right to see them as "victims" or is it perhaps fair to say they are at least in part, involved in their own downfall??

I hope that gives all sides something to think about!