Foreign owned property in Goa, (Part One)

dzibead

In California, they could definitley be sued under California Business & Professions Code section 17200, and possibly under Business & Professions Code section 17500 et seq. as well. Regulation of false advertising is not limited only to certain industries where the exact required wording is prescribed.

Also, in California, if these companies were targeting California residents by advertising in newspapers or other publications sold in California, even if the company had no other operations there, that would be sufficient to subject the them to the jurisdiction of California's courts under California's so-called "long-arm" statute. I don't know the law in other states but I'd bet my bottom dollar it's basically the same in most or all of them. Federal courts in the U.S. also do not hesitate to exercise personal jurisdiction over foreign businesses targeting U.S. residents, under Federal "long arm" jurisdiction.

I don't know whether Britain has similar notions of extra-territorial jurisdiction over people advertising in the U.K. -- it's unfortunate if it doesn't.

crvlvr

The US is definetly a sue happy place. Anyone can be sued for almost anything. Having said that, suing a used car dealership who advertised a low low price that gets buyers into his store, only to be informed that the advertised car was sold just before you got there, but thev've got a similar model for a few $ more, is impractical.

Similarly, I question the practicality of any "long arm" law into foreign territory. Why would a dishonest property developer based in India have any need to show up to a law suit filed in the UK courts?

Teresa

GC Thank you for the welcome, not the first I have received since coming here, but said with the same amount of sincerity.

dzibead

As for the impracticality of the first kind of suit, that's why there are class actions (for situations where the monetary damages suffered by any particular individual are so small that that it wouldn't otherwise be worth that person's time/money to pursue the claim), and why there's often a provision for civil penalties being imposed upon proof of each violation, regardless of the actual monetary damage suffered by the individual. This really isn't the place to go into a whole treatise on the effectiveness of such laws regarding false advertising, but believe me, they DO have their place and they certainly CAN be effective.

As for the practicality of a country's long-arm statute, believe me, those work, too. A defendant who fails to appear to defend such an action will have a default judgment entered against it, which could include injunctive relief that would bar any future advertising (which would impact obtaining future business) and could also include monetary damages that could be enforced against any assets the defendant might have in the US (and I think UK law would allow this also); and, pursuant to certain international treaties, the judgments may also be enforced against assets in the defendant's home country, too.

greenchutney

maybe

crvlvr...you can check the TECK COMINCO ruling just last month which is raising some eyebrows...and causing discomfort in many levels..

i cant wait for the chaos to happen if say the US targets chinese coal factories causing pollution clouds to drift towards west coast of the US in a similar mindset...

here's a link to the story in NPR


U.S. Pollution Law Targets Canadian Smelter
by Martin Kaste
Morning Edition, August 28, 2006 ·
An Indian tribe in Washington state has successfully sued a company whose smelter in Canada is fouling the Columbia River in the United States. The court says the U.S. Superfund law applies to foreign polluters, if the pollution affects U.S. territory. The ruling is being appealed.

GoanCanuck

The problem is that most of these sham companies are not doing any trading. They exist for the sole purpose of acquiring property.

Teresa

Firstly, I must admit that I was originally like many of the other British ex-pats that have contributed to this site, completely blown away with the friendly laid back attitude of the Indians on my many holidays here, The weather, the food etc. So after many years dreaming of escaping the rat race I got to a place in my life where I decided to 'bite the bullet', gave up my job, sold my house, paid off my debts and came to Goa. I had the intention of staying for a few years and then??..
We first rented an apartment from a goan lady who we had met on our last holiday. The rental contract was for 5 years but one day, 10 months into the contract, she sent her advocate to the property to inform us that we had to leave as she had sold the flat. It was ok because we were given 24 hours to pack up our belongings!!.Like a fool I thought it would be good to ship over furniture etc from England, so a big panic there.We lost the 3 month advance we had to pay at the onset of the 'contract'. One of my Goan 'Friends' said he knew of somewhere else and pointed us in the direction of the property we now rent. The story gets worse from there onwards...Guess we all have our horror stories.
I also now realise that Goa does not have the very basics eg.water supply,reliable electrity that does not wreck every electrical item due to the constant power-outs,surges etc,etc.There is no reason in this day and age why a wealthy nation cannot provide basic amenities for their people but the corruption within the local Panchyats has ensured that this will never be.Yes, the illegal connections to the beach shacks for the holidymakers enjoyment at the expense of the local people. I have learnt.I am angry about this and other situations for the local people not just the 'Foreign Residents'.. The corruption and greed is now so deeply embedded within Goa it has become a part of the very nature of everybody here.
Yes, we have met many people since being here, and maybe we are just unlucky, but EVERY Indian, without exception, that we have met has been our friend until the money ran out.. This is our experience of the people so far.I live in hope.

Anyway,It is only now, having experienced the greed and corruption within India, that I realise that the Brits et al who believe they are legally PURCHASING properties. or are planning to do so are taking such a huge risk.And the reason that I registered to this site is that We (on IM) all know that the advice these people are being given(starting fom the issuing of incorrect visa's from the Indian Embassy in Britain) is far from the truth and a downright sham. The 'Prospective Purchasers' will have no come-back as India will not sign up to any International agreements that would offer protection in any court of law.Therefore,what these people believe they own will, no doubt, be taken away from them by the Government or somebody else and there is nobody to stop this from happening.There are No Laws for protection.
I, like many others (not all), on IM feel that through our experiences a word of warning should be given.
I strongly suspect that most of these people will end up losing everything including the dream....

GoanCanuck

Teresa, very sorry to hear your situation in Goa. This lady who cheated you was she from Calangute? Another piece of advice, no genuine landlord in Goa ever offers a rental contract longer than 11 months. This is due to the limitations imposed by property law in Goa.

Looks like this lady intentionally made you sign a 5 year rental contract to get the advance from you and then sold off the apartment before the 11 month period knowing full well that if she had allowed you to stay more than 11 months then her options to get rid of you would have been greatly reduced.

crvlvr

I am not debating the existence of laws and legal recourse. I am questioning the practicality of an international lawsuit. Getting the judgement is the easy part. Getting the settlement if the dificult part. Indian courts take pride in not recognizing any foreign judgements -- especially from a previous colonial power. I suspect these real estate developers have no assets in the UK or address. They do business over the internet.

GC, thanks for the link. US and Canada have an interesting relationship.. Some call Canada the 51st state of US. So the US govt may wield a little more power in Canada than say India. Here is another interesting case of Marc Emery, Prince of Pot.

goangoangone

The britishexpats forum gave me a laugh. There's one person coming to Goa for a week next time to have a good look around for a property to buy.

__________________
GoanGoan......here

capt_mahajan

this is the part of your experience i find most sad.

dzibead

Yes, it is sad, but I can't help feeling that this is not primarily about Indians/Goans vs. non-Indians. I think this dynamic is almost inevitably at work when there is a large and highly identifiable community of outsiders, particularly when the outsiders are more affluent than the locals, which is the situation you have in a lot of tourists/resort/retirement destinations, not just Goa. The outsiders vs. locals dynamic is just that much more extreme when the outsiders and locals are from different countries and different cultures.

I found what looks like a very interesting book on the development of resort communities in the American West, particularly affluent resort communities like Jackson Hole, Steamboat Springs, Aspen, Vail, and Santa Fe. It's called Devil's Bargains: Tourism in the Twentieth-Century American West by Hal K. Rothman, and there's a review of it here: http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journ...all/devils.htm

Here's a very telling excerpt from the review:

"Tourism, an extractive industry funded by wealthy individual and corporate outsiders, not only changed the West but also ensured it will remain a colony. Therein lies the devil's bargain. Westerners often viewed tourist revenue and concomitant economic development as a magical cure for stagnant or declining economies. They hoped this clean industry would provide the proverbial free lunch, but, of course, it did not. Tourism demanded, and almost always received, a community's soul for its favors. Local people quickly found themselves marginalized by outsiders who brought capital to develop areas showing promise as tourist destinations. As these outsiders moved to budding tourist meccas, they began changing the local culture to suit their tastes. In virtually every case Rothman examines, local atmosphere joined local people on the waste heap."

Teresa complains that the locals were her "friends until the money ran out." Obviously this is intended as a negative reflection on the Indians she has dealt with, but is that entirely the case? - or does it reflect just as much on the person making the complaint? Money may be the only thing you're bringing to the party. If so, it's not very surprising if the "friendship" built on it evaporates when the money does. If you are essentially an outsider, just hang out in the ex-pat community, and haven't made any real connections with people in the community other than buying their goods and services, you're not likely to be of very much interest to them in any other capacity. And, human nature being what it is, I believe that would be the case in most places, not just Goa.

I sort of think that anyone who moves into a community as an outsider, especially as part of a highly identifiable (and affluent) group of outsiders (whether it's Manhattenites congregating in Long Island beach towns, or rich people gathering in Aspen to ski ... or Brits moving to Goa) is sort of "asking for it" when they are "objectified" and treated ambigously by the locals.

capt_mahajan

Good point.

I cant help feeling, however, that this cannot excuse the local people from befriending somebody till the money runs out.

If an expat wanted to be insular, I would probably ignore them, not try to cheat them or sponge on them.

greenchutney

there all kinds of people in any society. people who sponge/act on naive people! and i tell ya, some of these expats coming here thinking that they are in a extension of a london suburb, well, they are good juicy targets! india has no shortage of them louts/touts and sharks.. lets not also assume all the expats coming here are innocent angels as well...what with their royal air, colonial expectations, fat cat salaries what not.....excuse me.

sorry teresa, not picking on ya...but i am struggling to understand how you are complaining about power cuts in goa..when even delhi and new bombay have it everyday..and they are big industrial metros. and even industries in places like pune, new bombay are struggling for power.. the power situation is pretty dire in the country and its not surprising that goa has it.

the honeymoon experience during the holidays is much different than day-to-day life issues......maybe incredible india campaign needs to have a page 2..or a fine print with some disclaimers!.

dzibead

Yes, you're probably more "evolved" than the average person

But the point was not so much to excuse the locals' rapaciousness as to make the point -- in response to Teresa's comment that "EVERY Indian" that she had met, "without exception" has been like this -- that this not a uniquely Indian trait, but a by-product of the outsider/local dynamic commonly found in tourist/resort/retirement meccas. If she just settled in a regular Indian city or town and were not automatically lumped as part of some intrusive "expat community" she probably wouldn't be getting the same kind of negative vibe she's getting in Goa. (She'd still have to deal with the power cuts, though: Yeh hai India, darling! If you choose to live there, you just have to suck it up.)