Going on 60, still together.. what unites India?

blackbird · Aug 13th, 2007, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by IVAN

The ex-Yugoslavia did not partition because of some irrational motives, but because of reasons of diverging interests (economic and national).

If India stays together, it is perhaps primarily because it is still percieved as the best interest of the majority of the various population groups that constitute it. (Interests in the positive sense, but also in the anti-negative one.)

Interesting point, but what is the shared interest?

For example, for purely economic reasons, it would seem to make sense for the more successful states such as Goa and Kerala to leave the union, but it's not even discussed.

So what do they have to gain by staying? Not much, as far as I can tell.... it seems they stay because no-one even questions the fact that they are Indian and therefore belong in India.

As I understand it, although the British may have invented the name "India", and ultimately united most of the country, the concept of Bharat has been around for thousands of years. Therefore it has a lot more power than the idea of Yugoslavia which was always perceived as a recent, artificial creation by most of the inhabitants (correct me if I'm wrong Ivan!).

lonelyaztec · Aug 13th, 2007, 23:05

Many people feel India is falling apart.

Especially if you are in Bangalore. you can see the chaos.

Even after 60 years of Independence, this city can't get its act together. So much corruption, its a nightmare when you try to commute between office and home.

Is there a lack of intelligent city planners?

shashank.aggarwal · Aug 13th, 2007, 23:09

it might be the conservative culture...

whatever religions are there in India...most of them..or if I may so..all are conservative in nature...

Couple of decades not impacting the centuries of tradition..

Nick-H · Aug 14th, 2007, 00:30

It is a shame to continue in the cynical vein --- we could perhaps make this a Big Birthday Party thread --- but I have a feeling that what holds India together is not its people, but the power of a very small number of political persons and families.

Unity is certainly in their interest, I guess. the bigger the entity, the greater the power.

blackbird · Aug 14th, 2007, 01:00

Another thought: maybe the horrors of the 1947 partition play a part in dampening any enthusiasm for India to be divided again..... I've heard it said that if they were separate states, Tamil Nadu & Karnataka would be at war over the water issue.....

bijapuri · Aug 14th, 2007, 01:05

This is a god question, and the answers are many and complicated. All of the above are part of it, methinks.
My 2 annas:
What keeps India together?

"The centre" as it is called in the press.

Usually this means the federal govt, but there is a federal economy, a federal culture, Education system. A federal road rail and communication system. Every time a villager from another state makes the migration to an urban megalopolis, the bond strengehtns. And yes, the CRPF.

history shows that one separatist movement cannot hope to defeat the Centre on its own. Only a broad consensus in favor of disbandment would do the trick. The prospect grows weaker each day as roads, rail, etc extend their Liliputian ropes accross the giant Swiftian subcontinent.

The educated elite running India comes from all the major sections, so who do you rebel against anymore?

--------------------------

I was in India for the 50th, and a few other anniversaries as well. It's usually a bittersweet time of reflection on promises not kept, and mourning for the ethnic cleansing of partition.

IVAN · Aug 14th, 2007, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird

For example, for purely economic reasons, it would seem to make sense for the more successful states such as Goa and Kerala to leave the union, but it's not even discussed.

I have limited knowledge of the specifics, but the fact that a state does well comparatively is hardly a reason to separate, because it does well inside a complex multidimensional context/frame in which the appartenance to India plays a large role.
It is in question if those states would do (so) well outside that frame - one cannot just mechanically transpose things outside the whole context.

Besides, the desire to separate comes when the interests balance becomes negative, when the negatives outweight the positives.

If the appartenance to India was seen as contrary to the interests of these two states, if the percieved negative sides outweighted the positive ones, you can bet that you would hear secession voices growing...

The shared interest is obviously the fact that India is percieved to create a common internal frame (big internal market for example, competitive with other giants) and external frame (far greater common political weight in the battle for local interests than the weight of just a local state) for local interests, whose positive sides outweight the negative ones.

There is also the power of the common network of economic and other connections whose cost of dismantlement is also a big factor to consider.

If any state, local community or national group percieved that the balance became negative, it would soon tend to independence.

I am not saying that identity does not play an important role for many people, but where there is a local AND a common identity, and particularly where there are strong local identities, especially if they can be defined as "national", if it is percieved that the appartenance to the common state endangers and jeopardises the local interests in a fundamental hardly manageable way inside the common system, the natural tendency is for the local identity to preavail and to tend to leave the common system.

ISN · Aug 14th, 2007, 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bijapuri

The educated elite running India

Educated people running India? That’s a joke most of the politicians are illiterate.

PeakXV · Aug 14th, 2007, 03:32

Indian railways!

bijapuri · Aug 14th, 2007, 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISN

Educated people running India? That’s a joke most of the politicians are illiterate.

True, there are some. Keep in mind that politicians are a very small part of the ruling class

ISN · Aug 14th, 2007, 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bijapuri

True, there are some. Keep in mind that politicians are a very small part of the ruling class

Some? There are many, that is the fundamental problem. How many of the politicians in India are capable of holding a private sector jobs? How many times have you seen a business major or a PHD politician?

shashank.aggarwal · Aug 14th, 2007, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird

For example, for purely economic reasons, it would seem to make sense for the more successful states such as Goa and Kerala to leave the union, but it's not even discussed.

Thats a very serious misconception...

I wont comment on how successful are these states and where they stand, but they are successful, because they are a part of much larger, social, economic and political system. If Kerela is not part of India, then it ill be surrounded by the landmass of India from three sides and ocean on the one...

It would depend for its major needs on India, raw materials, market for finished goods, infrastructural help...

As of now these things come automatically to all the states...but once you are separated from the Union these things would be known as trade ties and privileges...

capt_mahajan · Aug 14th, 2007, 10:21

Goa is often touted as a state which is richer than the rest of the country. This is fallacious.

The per capita income of Goa is high (not the highest).. which is not the same thing.

What some may not appreciate is that the structure of India means that all States get a percentage of central government revenue, and grants. One can argue about whether an indpendent state would do better because it controlled its trade, but the complex matrix, as shashank points out, would get disturbed in many ways.

And States which have assumed free flow of money, labour and material from the rest of India may find that they are not so rich after all.

A big expense... defence, is born by the Central government, too. And so are a horde of smaller expenses.

Some figures here will bear me out. Goa budget for 2004/2005
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:...k&cd=3&gl=uk#2

shashank.aggarwal · Aug 14th, 2007, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISN

Some? There are many, that is the fundamental problem. How many of the politicians in India are capable of holding a private sector jobs? How many times have you seen a business major or a PHD politician?

Attached is a CV, that might help you.

But I agree that a large section might be uneducated, but still you have people from some elite colleges serving as politicians..

Nick-H · Aug 14th, 2007, 13:03

business thinking is probably one of the greatest problems in Indian politics.

Too many people are in it for money and personal power and ego. Not, of course, that India is unique in that, but it is an extreme case.

Indian government has been privatised long since.

Developing Country: Third World Politics

View Poll Results: What keeps India united?
Shared sense of identity	32	45.07%
Extreme form of democracy	11	15.49%
Secular tradition with religious freedom	26	36.62%
The Indian ruling elite	8	11.27%
Or just the sheer differences	17	23.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

Aug 13th, 2007, 23:05	#17
lonelyaztec Maha Guru Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,408	Many people feel India is falling apart. Especially if you are in Bangalore. you can see the chaos. Even after 60 years of Independence, this city can't get its act together. So much corruption, its a nightmare when you try to commute between office and home. Is there a lack of intelligent city planners? __________________ Aztec My photoblog

Aug 13th, 2007, 23:09	#18
shashank.aggarwal Mr. Badboy :D Join Date: May 2007 Location: ~ Dilli ~ Posts: 5,504	it might be the conservative culture... whatever religions are there in India...most of them..or if I may so..all are conservative in nature... Couple of decades not impacting the centuries of tradition.. __________________ Travelogue - Around India Random Reviews

Aug 14th, 2007, 00:30	#19
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,856	It is a shame to continue in the cynical vein --- we could perhaps make this a Big Birthday Party thread --- but I have a feeling that what holds India together is not its people, but the power of a very small number of political persons and families. Unity is certainly in their interest, I guess. the bigger the entity, the greater the power. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Aug 14th, 2007, 01:05	#21
bijapuri laid traps for troubadours Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Priustan Posts: 2,598	This is a god question, and the answers are many and complicated. All of the above are part of it, methinks. My 2 annas: What keeps India together? "The centre" as it is called in the press. Usually this means the federal govt, but there is a federal economy, a federal culture, Education system. A federal road rail and communication system. Every time a villager from another state makes the migration to an urban megalopolis, the bond strengehtns. And yes, the CRPF. history shows that one separatist movement cannot hope to defeat the Centre on its own. Only a broad consensus in favor of disbandment would do the trick. The prospect grows weaker each day as roads, rail, etc extend their Liliputian ropes accross the giant Swiftian subcontinent. The educated elite running India comes from all the major sections, so who do you rebel against anymore? -------------------------- I was in India for the 50th, and a few other anniversaries as well. It's usually a bittersweet time of reflection on promises not kept, and mourning for the ethnic cleansing of partition. __________________ Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential. Barack Obama lookit me!!!: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bijapuri/ Utube fuzzy logic: http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=bijapuri&p =r

Aug 14th, 2007, 01:00	#20
blackbird Jai Maa Tarini Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Bristol, England Posts: 385	Another thought: maybe the horrors of the 1947 partition play a part in dampening any enthusiasm for India to be divided again..... I've heard it said that if they were separate states, Tamil Nadu & Karnataka would be at war over the water issue.....

Aug 14th, 2007, 03:32	#24
PeakXV Naan.tering Nabob Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Abode of Glooscap Posts: 4,195	Indian railways! __________________ We shall not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started ...and know the place for the first time. T.S. Eliot Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

Aug 14th, 2007, 10:21	#28
capt_mahajan (in charge of navel affairs) Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 10,105	Goa is often touted as a state which is richer than the rest of the country. This is fallacious. The per capita income of Goa is high (not the highest).. which is not the same thing. What some may not appreciate is that the structure of India means that all States get a percentage of central government revenue, and grants. One can argue about whether an indpendent state would do better because it controlled its trade, but the complex matrix, as shashank points out, would get disturbed in many ways. And States which have assumed free flow of money, labour and material from the rest of India may find that they are not so rich after all. A big expense... defence, is born by the Central government, too. And so are a horde of smaller expenses. Some figures here will bear me out. Goa budget for 2004/2005 http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:...k&cd=3&gl=uk#2

Aug 14th, 2007, 13:03	#30
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,856	business thinking is probably one of the greatest problems in Indian politics. Too many people are in it for money and personal power and ego. Not, of course, that India is unique in that, but it is an extreme case. Indian government has been privatised long since. Developing Country: Third World Politics

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