last time: female attire?

steven_ber · Jun 13th, 2005, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by phantom

Things have improved quite a bit now. I havent heard of a single bride-burning in the last 5-10 yrs. And even earlier I have only read about them in newspapers and watched it in movies.

I am astonished at this comment, (are you thinking of the number of cases of Sati?)

I read about bride burning nearly everyday in the Asian Age newspaper.

OK, it is not necessarily the husband directly 'burning the bride', most often it is either the bride committing suicide or the bride accidentally pouring kerosene over her entire body then setting herself on fire, both cases are normally because of severe pressure for more dowry from the husband and normally the husbands mother.

It is pleasing to see that the police take these cases seriously, even if the bride commits suicide, the husband and family can still go to prison if it is proved that they put the bride under extreme pressure.

I also think it is more to do with wanting MORE dowry, rather than being disappointed with the original (agreed) dowry.

phantom · Jun 13th, 2005, 19:00

Actually I cant refute the facts that you are presenting. I dont read "Asian Age". I read only "Hindustan Times"

.. Also In my social circle I have never come across a single person who is directly or indirectly has been related or has known about any such crime. And I am not very sure about the authenticity of these reports from 'Asian Age', either.
Also these days police reacts very quickly for a single hint of physical harrassment of wives. I have seen couples having strained relationships because of dowry issues.. but never any extreme steps taken by either one of them. After some time it just cools down. And even these cases are very scarce, one in a thousand couples, kinda.

steven_ber · Jun 13th, 2005, 19:21

The cases I read about are normally in very poor villages in Bihar, UP, Orissa, MP, Maharashtra etc.

The following article is from today’s Asian Age, it doesn't involve a death, but it's an interesting article, I'm surprised the wife managed to get a FIR against a family of cops, it's good to see.

Quote:

7 cops held for dowry in Madurai
- By Our Correspondent

Madurai, June 12: Four policemen in Madurai have been charged with dowry harassment of a woman who alleged that they had tried to set her on fire as she could not meet their demands. All police personnel are incidentally from the same family. The case has been registered against thirty year old Selvaraj, 30, an armed reserved policeman of Athikulam who married Ponmeni, from the same area on August 22, 2004. Cases have also been registered against his father Karuppiah, who is a head constable in Theni district, his brother Rajamohan who is a armed reserved policeman in Coimbatore, his sister Bharathy a woman police constable in Coimbatore, his brother Kulandaivelu, mother Rajammal and aunt Rameswari.

According to the police at the time of the wedding, Ponmeni says she brought with her a dowry of 30 sovereigns.

Recently Selvaraj had met with an accident and she had even pawned the jewels to meet her husband’s medical expenses, according to the police.

But despite this the police said her husband and in-laws had harassed her to bring Rs 50,000 more from her father’s home.

The woman then lodged a complaint against them in the Tallakulam police station.

Ponmei alleged that the family had tried to set her on fire after dousing her with kerosene.

According to her family members they were apprehensive that the police may not file and FIR against all those whom Ponmeni had named, as all of them were in the police department.

However, the all women police station in Tallakulam, with whom Ponmeni lodged her complaint registered a case against, seven persons Women activists here said that as soon as an FIR is registered in a dowry harassment case the people named are usually arrested.

The activists alleged that this was not done in the present case as those involved were police personnel and members of their family.

Sama · Jun 13th, 2005, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatsilliness

Can that be taken to the fact that women are still very much second-class citizens? And as such are viewed with less respect and so their wishes arent as respected?
When i said this before, many female travellers said no not at all.

but then what is the reason?

There are the answers that help one to understand a culture after all, eh?

The only reason I mentioned bride-burning was because of the comment/question about Indian women as second-class citizens, NOT to open up a can of worms in a thread about proper attire.

I would also have to concur with steven_ber. I recall reading (probably within the last 6 months or so, in a major US paper) that bride-burning, where once only seen in the lower castes, is moving into the middle class socio-economic level. But that's for a different thread....

phantom · Jun 13th, 2005, 20:39

I still think that It is NOT common. and is one of those stereotypes which we have come out of long back

machadinha · Jun 13th, 2005, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by phantom

Now regarding the changed status of Indian women as compared to the GOOD OLD DAYS, I think a lot has to do with the "bad influence" of the west...!!!! It all started with the Mughals invading India. They brought along the "Purdah system" and showed contempt to all the other women without it ... Prior to that, India was a very liberal country, we can all make that out with those caves inscriptions.

This theory pops up a lot here so it seems to be quite widespread. I think the idea that India prior to the Moghuls was a haven of liberal freedoms enjoyed by all and sundry is a vast oversimplification; as for the inscriptions and sculptures that are usually pointed at to underline the argument (one assumes Khajuraho and similar sites are meant, the Kama Sutra is also often brought up), I think it's debatable whether those are accurate depictions of the everyday life of the masses, or rather idealized and idyllic scenes of life as it perhaps could be under god knows what circumstances, or if they were not highly localized scenes. Looking at all those perfectly and symmetrically rounded and buxom ladies is enough to give one pause.

You mentioned Rajasthani women, I found it interesting that headdress or not they often seemed to be in charge of a given party on their way, or at least by no means shy about their status. I'm sure it has to do with the Rajput past, many of whom remained independent of the Moghuls by the way, and the status of women among certain clans and tribes, some of whom are even matrilinear if not matriarchal.

Anyway I just call into question this romantic notion of a liberal Aryan or Dravidian India prior to the Moghuls and then everything bad that happened came about only after and because of their arrival (a tough case to make in the case of much of the South anyway). Surely Aryan society itself was highly hierarchical with its very involved caste system and so on, women as a class do not usually fare well under such circumstances, with the move towards agriculture and city-building and the stratification of society they (and children) are often the first to lose their rights.

phantom · Jun 13th, 2005, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by machadinha

This theory pops up a lot here so it seems to be quite widespread. I think the idea that India prior to the Moghuls was a haven of liberal freedoms enjoyed by all and sundry is a vast oversimplification; as for the inscriptions and sculptures that are usually pointed at to underline the argument (one assumes Khajuraho and similar sites are meant, the Kama Sutra is also often brought up), I think it's debatable whether those are depictions of the everyday life of the masses, or rather idealized and idyllic scenes of life as it perhaps could be under god knows what circumstances, or if they were not highly localized scenes. Looking at all those perfectly and symmetrically rounded and buxom ladies is enough to give one pause.

You mentioned Rajasthani women, I found it interesting that headdress or not they often seemed to be in charge of a given party on their way, or at least by no means shy about their status. I'm sure it has to do with the Rajput past, many of whom remained independent of the Moghuls by the way, and the status of women among certain clans and tribes, some of whom are even matrilinear if not matriarchal.

Anyway I just call into question this romantic notion of a liberal Aryan or Dravidian India prior to the Moghuls and then everything bad that happened came about only after and because of their arrival (a tough case to make in the case of much of the South anyway). Surely Aryan society itself was highly hierarchical with its very involved caste system and so on, women as a class do not usually fare well under such circumstances, with the move towards agriculture and city-building and the stratification of society they (and children) are often the first to lose their rights.

You are right that its oversimplification. India was quite liberal is a fact. Purdah system is the mughal influence is also a fact. Nowhere in Indian history (or mythology as some would say), is there any mention of women being secluded and had to cover themselves up. And yes, there are matriarchal societies in India. A lot of families in rural India has a woman as the head of the family. And its not only about khajuraho.. almost every sculpture of that era is showing the similar 'liberal' views.

Hierarchy has nothing to do with a society being liberal (with respect to the women) or not. The caste system which turned out to be the 'ugly face' of ancient india, when conceptualized, was not that a bad idea. It was only the segregation of a population on the basis of the 'work' they do. People were free to leave or enter a caste. Later on it became twisted and got attached to 'birth'. Then the problems started.

I cant discuss the merits and demerits of the aryan society. So would refrain from commenting on that

beach · Jun 13th, 2005, 21:23

I googled groping

where is this India appearing??...looks like a Japanise trouble

Ok to be fair, googled gropping and India. Looks like India is groping in the dark

Looks like this thread has travelled a long way up from the hem of a long long skirt to groping to ...what next ?

Ok, there is nothing called grop-proof wear. Wear a jeans and a good long top. That is what (young) women in our homes wear, whan they've to travel in one of those jam packed buses trains etc. Choose cloths thick enough to avoid those 'transparent view'. Pack a lot of commonsense too. You'll be OK. Also wear cloths according to the place. There is nothing called 'cloths for India'. Just look arround, you'll pick up the right signal soon

Nick-H · Jun 13th, 2005, 22:45

Definately cases of dowry harrassment in my daily newspapers here in Chennai, and I know that there are several Woman-only staffed police stations that specialise in dealing with such complaints.

It has been explained to me that the idea behind dowry is that the woman will not inherit from her parents, so she takes her share of family fortune when she marries and has no further claim on it. She and her husband know where they stand and know that nothing more will come. However it seems to have become more family misfortune, with people having to get into debt to get their daughters married. Did someone mention that dowry is illegal? I think they did already.

snowcrab · Jun 13th, 2005, 22:57

Actually the thread has just looked at the reason why women who come to India worry about what they wear. That is not going very far afield. Women worry about two things. People, both men and women treating them with disrespect, and presenting themselves as attractively as possible. The unexamined issue here is why do young (and not so young) western women feel so anxious about how they advertise their sexuality. It's definitely a clash of cultures.

Western men are very picky about women's appearance. I've been with groups of young men sitting about listening while they very harshly and critically appraised the figures and costumes of the passing parade. They watch a lot of porn, get unrealistic attitudes about what normal women's bodies should look like from images of surgically enhanced performers and from clothing and makeup ads of airbrushed and idealized female bodies, often in very scanty garments. Then young women make themselves crazy dieting, exercizing, buying makeup products and spending a small fortune on clothes to try to elicit approval from these young louts.

Then when girls come to India, the guys are not only not supercritical, they are way too enthusiastic about the tiniest bit of what might be by the farthest stretches of imagination be called encouragement. Going to be communication problems, no doubts about that.But if the ladies go slow, err on the side of conservatism at first and then find where their comfort level is as they go along, Indian men's enthusiasm can be a real treat and balm for wounded feminine egos.

Nick-H · Jun 13th, 2005, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by machadinha

... ... ... Looking at all those perfectly and symmetrically rounded and buxom ladies is enough to give one pause.

Oh, Indeed, Indeed.............

But seriously... I'm told there is a theory that, far from being evidence of a liberal society, they are the fantasies of celibate monks.

It always seems unlikely to me, that, given the climate of the south, at least, women would have covered their breasts.

It also occurs to me that bare-breasted women may not, in fact, be a symptom of a liberal society!

machadinha · Jun 13th, 2005, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowcrab

The unexamined issue here is why do young (and not so young) western women feel so anxious about how they advertise their sexuality.

Well, yes, I hadn't wanted to put it so bluntly. But it never ceases to amaze me how many young women seem to be preoccupied with can I wear my make-up and my miniskirt or whatever when going to a completely different culture and surroundings. I don't know, it bothers me that they should be so inundated with the thought at home to begin with, but going to a place like India it seems like such an odd priority. Apart from groping or not it would seem logical to wear things that suit as many different occasions as possible and are generally comfortable given the climate and a whole range of activities that you might want to engage in without having to change your dress all the time. A forum like this often makes you wonder too how readily at hand all the world has apparently become what with guidebooks and the internet and such, you sometimes get the feeling people just board a plane like that expecting everything to be just like home which they've never left before. If that's good or bad I don't know, it's just a curious development I think. It depends so much too, are you doing a two-week package deal to Goa or planning to "go native" and way off the beaten track for 6 months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

It always seems unlikely to me, that, given the climate of the south, at least, women would have covered their breasts.

It also occurs to me that bare-breasted women may not, in fact, be a symptom of a liberal society!

You're quite right of course, it would be ridiculous to think that in societies where women go around bare-breasted this is considered a "liberal" thing or as somehow flaunting their sexuality. On the contrary, it's because breasts are not thought to have any sexual connotation at all, the taboo is almost invariably shifted to another part of the body, such as the legs for instance.

Sama · Jun 13th, 2005, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by machadinha

Well, yes, I hadn't wanted to put it so bluntly. But it never ceases to amaze me how many young women seem to be preoccupied with can I wear my make-up and my miniskirt or whatever when going to a completely different culture and surroundings. I don't know, it bothers me that they should be so inundated with the thought at home to begin with, but going to a place like India it seems like such an odd priority.

HELLO!!! THANK YOU!

yes, especially the make-up part! Yikes, the very last thing I'm going to worry about in Chennai is WHAT TYPE OF FOUNDATION TO BRING! I mean, with the heat, it's just going to melt off my face anyway....

Newmark · Jun 14th, 2005, 01:36

Great, interesting and thoughtful thread guys - the question as to why women are groped ANYWHERE is an interesting one.

Here's my thoughts:

I can't believe that groping Indian men truly believe that because women in the West are "easier," their groping actually has a chance of success and so that's why they do it. For this to be true, they'd have to have experience of some "success." Hands up any women here who've been groped, found the experience pleasing and have responded by entering a sexual relationship with their attacker. Nobody? No surprise. This also suggests that what a female tourist wears makes no difference to whether they're groped or not - I'd guess that a skimpily dressed Western woman is as unlikely to respond positivily to being groped as a conveservativly dressed one.

So why do tourists in India get groped?

It seems clear that in India, foreign women are groped more often than local ones. This seems to be true all over the world - you're more likely to be groped if you're not local. I think that perhaps this is because foreign women may be thought of as being outside the gropers social universe. It's easier to see a woman as an object if you don't know much about how they think, what they believe or how they feel.

Additionally, the chances of there being a comeback to your groping is far more likely if you grope a local woman. For example, you could run into problems with their friends, brothers, parents etc. The chances of you getting in trouble are far less if you assault someone with few ties in the area. This would also explain why women who are groped in the West are usually groped by strangers - less chance of retaliation. I think this might explain why Western women who dress in Indian clothes report fewer problems - such women may appear more likely to have ties in the area.

Just realised that this very long, rambling post doesn't really answer the question as to why women get groped, but I hope nobody thinks I'm totally way off beam in regard to why tourists experience more problems than locals.

Or am I out of line? Please correct me if I am.

machadinha · Jun 14th, 2005, 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by phantom

Hierarchy has nothing to do with a society being liberal (with respect to the women) or not.

Not picking a fight but it does. It's fairly well documented (depending on who you ask nonetheless no doubt) how in original hunter-gatherer societies the hunting part, traditionally taken up by men, was fairly imbalanced on the scale of exercise required vs. actual results. How it came to be such an esteemed business nonetheless is a matter of some debate, perhaps precisely because of its difficulty, or perhaps sudden acute shortages owing to climatic changes or migrations may have played a part there (my theory). You'd need to examine to what extent the rise of religion and of language as such played a role here, the former especially being a rather improductive attempt to master the inexplicable and the unattainable if you ask me, but it's leading a little too far right now. Either way, the gathering part seems to have been far more reliable and productive and was for a large part carried out by women and children, which was reflected in their social status. It is with the move towards a sedentary agricultural and cattle-raising existence that a necessary hierarchy arises, later followed by the demands of a city-dwelling existence, and for some reason (fear of power?) women and children almost invariably lose much of their rights during the transition. I am not a believer in women's intrinsic physical inferiority to men but it may well have played a role in the process.

I looked up A.L. Basham's The Wonder That Was India again on the matter, a study of India before the Moghuls (Rupa & Co., 1954-'94; last revised by the author in 1966 in my edition). As a reflection of the time of writing no doubt his chapter on women itself is only one of the concluding parts of a much larger section on "Society: Class, Family and Individual," although it's preceded by related chapters on children, marriage, sexual relations, divorce and polygamy, which you'll excuse me for not rereading right now.

The chapter on "Women" itself is far too lengthy to quote in full, however it has a lot of valid or at least interesting observations in this respect. To quote a few:

Quote:

A woman, according to most authorities, was always a minor at law. As a girl she was under the tutelage of her parents, as an adult, of her husband, and as a widow, of her sons. Even under the liberal rules of Buddhism a nun, however advanced in the faith, was always subordinate to the youngest novice among the brethren. Early lawbooks assessed a woman's wergeld as equivalent to that of a sudra, whatever her class.

Most schools of law allowed a woman some personal property (stridhana) in the form of jewellery and clothing. The Arthasastra allowed her also to own money up to 2,000 silver panas, any sum above this being held by her husband in trust on her behalf. The husband had certain rights over his wife's property; he might sell it in dire emergency, and he might restrain her from giving it away wantonly, but for practical purposes it was her own, and when she died it passed not to her husband or to her sons, but to her daughters. Thus the property rights of women, limited though they were, were greater than in many other early civilizations. In fact women sometimes possessed more than was usually allowed to them by the rules of stridhana.

... Women could at all times take up a life of religion, though of course they could not officiate as priests. A few Vedic hymns are ascribed to women seers, and among the voluminous Buddhist scriptures is a whole collection of poems ascribed to the nuns of the early church; many of these are of great literary merit. ... By the time of the Smrtis, however, around the beginning of the Christian era, Vedic knowledge was closed to women, although the heterodox sects still catered for them. The tantric sects of the Middle Ages, who worshipped feminine divinities, gave women an important place in their cult and instituted orders of female ascetics.

In general, however, women were not encouraged to take up a life of religion or ascetiscism. Their true function was marriage, and the care of their menfolk and children. But the better class laywomen seem to have been educated, and there are several references to works of Sanskrit poetry and drama by women authors, of which some fragments survive. ... Though from medieval times until very recent years the arts of music and dancing were looked on as quite unfit for respectable Indian girls, and were practised only by low-caste women and prostitutes, this was not the case in ancient days, when well-to-do girls were taught singing and dancing, as well as other ladylike arts such as painting and garland-making.

In Muslim times the Hindus of Northern India adopted the system of parda, by which from puberty to old age women were carefully screened from the sight of all men but their husbands and close relatives. Though such a system did not exist in ancient India the freedom accorded to married women has often been exaggerated by authorities anxious to show that the more objectionable aspects of later Hindu custom had no place in India's ancient culture. Certainly the Rg Veda depicts young men and unmarried girls mixing freely, and gives no evidence that married women were in any way secluded, but this text belongs to a time which had long passed in the great days of Hindu culture. Kings, at any rate, kept their womenfolk in seclusion. The detailed instructions of the Arthasastra make it quite clear that the antahpura or royal harem was closely guarded, and that its inmates were not allowed to leave it freely. It was certainly not so strictly secluded as in later Muslim communities, however, for early Arab travellers remarked that queens were often to be seen in Hindu courts without veils.

... The women of the upper classes also were kept at a distance from the opposite sex. The Arthasastra, in many ways more liberal than the religious lawbooks, lays down quite stringent rules for the punishment of immodest wives. [Follows an exposition on several degrees of financial and, in the extreme case, corporal punishment for a variety of digressions.]

... We may conclude that, while a woman's freedom was generally much restricted, it was rarely completely taken away.

A wife, however, had little initiative. Her first duty was to wait on her husband, fetching and carrying for him, rubbing his feet when he was weary, rising before him, and eating and sleeping after him.

... [Following some quotes form classical texts] Passages like these, showing the honour and esteem in which women were held, are quite as numerous as those which stress their subservience. Everywhere it is stated that a woman should be lovingly cherished, well fed and cared for, and provided with jewellery and luxuries to the limits of her husband's means. She should never be upbraided too severely, for the gods will not accept the sacrifice of the man who beats his wife. The ancient Indian attitude to women was in fact ambivalent. She was at once a goddess and a slave, a saint and a strumpet.

... [Following another quote] No one man can satisfy a libidinous woman's cravings; unless constantly watched she will consort with every stranger, even with a hunchback, a dwarf or a cripple, and in the last resort will have recourse to Lesbian practices with members of her own sex [sic]. Her deception is as all-embracing as her lust, and she is incorrigibly fickle.

Moreover, women are quarrelsome and given to pique. ... [note that the author is merely reflecting on his quoted sources here].

Well, I'll leave it at this for now. It's an interesting book it is. The next chapter is on prostitution which should shed some light on temple business, as it did in much of ancient Europe for that matter.

Jun 13th, 2005, 21:23	#38
beach Lost in translation Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: India ! Posts: 2,233	I googled groping where is this India appearing??...looks like a Japanise trouble Ok to be fair, googled gropping and India. Looks like India is groping in the dark Looks like this thread has travelled a long way up from the hem of a long long skirt to groping to ...what next ? Ok, there is nothing called grop-proof wear. Wear a jeans and a good long top. That is what (young) women in our homes wear, whan they've to travel in one of those jam packed buses trains etc. Choose cloths thick enough to avoid those 'transparent view'. Pack a lot of commonsense too. You'll be OK. Also wear cloths according to the place. There is nothing called 'cloths for India'. Just look arround, you'll pick up the right signal soon __________________ Hampi info

Jun 13th, 2005, 22:45	#39
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,764	Definately cases of dowry harrassment in my daily newspapers here in Chennai, and I know that there are several Woman-only staffed police stations that specialise in dealing with such complaints. It has been explained to me that the idea behind dowry is that the woman will not inherit from her parents, so she takes her share of family fortune when she marries and has no further claim on it. She and her husband know where they stand and know that nothing more will come. However it seems to have become more family misfortune, with people having to get into debt to get their daughters married. Did someone mention that dowry is illegal? I think they did already. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

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Jun 13th, 2005, 19:00	#32
phantom Maha Guru Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,214	Actually I cant refute the facts that you are presenting. I dont read "Asian Age". I read only "Hindustan Times" .. Also In my social circle I have never come across a single person who is directly or indirectly has been related or has known about any such crime. And I am not very sure about the authenticity of these reports from 'Asian Age', either. Also these days police reacts very quickly for a single hint of physical harrassment of wives. I have seen couples having strained relationships because of dowry issues.. but never any extreme steps taken by either one of them. After some time it just cools down. And even these cases are very scarce, one in a thousand couples, kinda.

Jun 13th, 2005, 20:39	#35
phantom Maha Guru Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,214	I still think that It is NOT common. and is one of those stereotypes which we have come out of long back

Jun 13th, 2005, 22:57	#40
snowcrab Maha Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alberta, Can Posts: 1,044	Actually the thread has just looked at the reason why women who come to India worry about what they wear. That is not going very far afield. Women worry about two things. People, both men and women treating them with disrespect, and presenting themselves as attractively as possible. The unexamined issue here is why do young (and not so young) western women feel so anxious about how they advertise their sexuality. It's definitely a clash of cultures. Western men are very picky about women's appearance. I've been with groups of young men sitting about listening while they very harshly and critically appraised the figures and costumes of the passing parade. They watch a lot of porn, get unrealistic attitudes about what normal women's bodies should look like from images of surgically enhanced performers and from clothing and makeup ads of airbrushed and idealized female bodies, often in very scanty garments. Then young women make themselves crazy dieting, exercizing, buying makeup products and spending a small fortune on clothes to try to elicit approval from these young louts. Then when girls come to India, the guys are not only not supercritical, they are way too enthusiastic about the tiniest bit of what might be by the farthest stretches of imagination be called encouragement. Going to be communication problems, no doubts about that.But if the ladies go slow, err on the side of conservatism at first and then find where their comfort level is as they go along, Indian men's enthusiasm can be a real treat and balm for wounded feminine egos.

Jun 14th, 2005, 01:36	#44
Newmark Ben Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 35	Great, interesting and thoughtful thread guys - the question as to why women are groped ANYWHERE is an interesting one. Here's my thoughts: I can't believe that groping Indian men truly believe that because women in the West are "easier," their groping actually has a chance of success and so that's why they do it. For this to be true, they'd have to have experience of some "success." Hands up any women here who've been groped, found the experience pleasing and have responded by entering a sexual relationship with their attacker. Nobody? No surprise. This also suggests that what a female tourist wears makes no difference to whether they're groped or not - I'd guess that a skimpily dressed Western woman is as unlikely to respond positivily to being groped as a conveservativly dressed one. So why do tourists in India get groped? It seems clear that in India, foreign women are groped more often than local ones. This seems to be true all over the world - you're more likely to be groped if you're not local. I think that perhaps this is because foreign women may be thought of as being outside the gropers social universe. It's easier to see a woman as an object if you don't know much about how they think, what they believe or how they feel. Additionally, the chances of there being a comeback to your groping is far more likely if you grope a local woman. For example, you could run into problems with their friends, brothers, parents etc. The chances of you getting in trouble are far less if you assault someone with few ties in the area. This would also explain why women who are groped in the West are usually groped by strangers - less chance of retaliation. I think this might explain why Western women who dress in Indian clothes report fewer problems - such women may appear more likely to have ties in the area. Just realised that this very long, rambling post doesn't really answer the question as to why women get groped, but I hope nobody thinks I'm totally way off beam in regard to why tourists experience more problems than locals. Or am I out of line? Please correct me if I am.

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