last time: female attire?

Dr Funkenstein

I don't think Nick's tarring all Indian men with the same brush but some of what he says rings true with me.

In Hampi I saw two Indian men in their 30's go into what can only be described as a frenzy of schoolboy nudge-nudge wink-winking simply because a woman on TV was in a bra.

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*jyoti*

I'm not offended by the question--it is a good one to ask. And perhaps my response was too hotheaded to Nick, but I think it's grossly unfair to say that the problem is because the men can't control their hormones.

Objectively, there are many cultures where sex is not acceptable before marriage. I don't have documented evidence, but it seems like the general acceptance of this kind of harassment as normal (esp reading the holi warnings thread) is not the typical cultural response. America before the sexual revolution, for instance--this kind of harassment would have been very offensive.

But, maybe it's the fact that men are so much older when they get married. Yet, historically, it seems like the avg age for women getting married is getting much higher but for men it hasn't gone up *that* much as women used to marry men quite a bit older than they were. And I would think the result of this would be either that the people agreed with the cultural standards or they would rebel, either openly or covertly. But, would that lead to a culture which may not *condone* sexual harassment but, from talk on the boards, at least considers it something to be endured? My instinct says no, at least not culture wide (and the fact that the older women seem to endure the same thing without seeing it as something new would imply that's it's not just a "the new generation" thing).

(i would be greatly interested to know if all of the harassing young men really ARE young 20 somethings or if there's a wider range than that).


Then perhaps it is because the women are dressing in a way to invite such invasion? Culturally, what one wears says a lot about yourself, and a woman who wears revealing clothing in such a modest culture (esp in certain situations such as riding a crowded bus) could inadvertently be advertising that she would welcome such sexual contact. But, many IMers have stated already that while conservation clothing helps, this isn't something directed at only immodestly dressed women or foreigners (on the assumption all Westerners are loose, etc). I have heard of many places where women had to be cautious just because they were foreign, but it doesn't seem like the nationals had nearly as much of a problem as Indian women seem to, at least from the boards.

Considering the humiliation that this cause women, and the disrespect that it implies, I would assume that this is a reflection of the culture's attitude toward women and their place (then consider dowry prices, bride burning, etc). Whether it's that women are lesser than men or simply if a woman gets out of her place in the society she has to expect to deal with the consequences, I don't know. Perhaps just a woman traveling on her own or with only a small group of women is breaking the norms enough that it seems justified to let whatever happens happen.

Not that I think that all Indians or all Indian men would or do turn a blind eye, and there are stories of women being quite confrontational about defending themselves without any backlash, but there are definitely other situations (such as holi) where women just DO NOT put themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

Sama

Very interesting article, Kanbe, and I am sure one that will evoke many feelings and opinions.

I also have been warned about "eve-teasing", where Indian men will run up to a woman and grope her, and yes, usually groping western women. I've been told to wear my backpack in front of me to protect my boobs. Well, guess what? That ain't gonna happen, for two simple reasons: #1, it will probably be uncomfortable, and #2, I'll probably look like an idiot. Someone will probably politely say to me, miss, your backpack is on backwards....

But I have also wondered why a culture with its fabulous pantheon of gods AND goddesses, who are on EQUAL TERMS (unlike Christianity), and indeed speaks about the beautiful union of Shiva and Shakti, and the Divine Mother, can put up with bride-burning. This is absolutely NOT a judgment, just a question.

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Nick-H

Jyoti, I'm very willing to accept your response, even if you feel it necessary to be be rude or insulting. In a kind of a way my post might be called a troll. If I was wrong I wanted to be told that I was wrong. I stuck my neck out and was willing to get my head chopped off. But what I posted was loosley based on what Indian women, living in India have told me. But it is what I've heard from just a few Indian women in just one part of India.

It is late now and I have only glanced at your long posts and the other repsonses: I'll give them proper attention in the morning.

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Casey

While in India I was never groped while wearing a skirt or any other item of clothing. Once I realized that everyone was staring at everyone, and that chatting to strangers on the trains and in buses was completely acceptable behavior I relaxed and chatted back. I have been groped on the bus in Ottawa by a fellow who wormed his way under my seat. I was also cornered on a bus by a masturbator, who when I informed the bus driver, he replied "that's the third time this week". While statistically this is insignificant, I have lived in Canada far longer that I have spent time in India, I can only state that while in Ottawa avoid the number 67 bus. I actually had a funny incident where two Indian men pulled out a postcard from Hampi that had a blonde woman in it. They appeared to think it was me (although I was not anywhere near Hampi at the time) and point and giggle like schoolgirls. Amusing, but not threatening.

snowcrab

Back in the late sixties when lots of people were backpacking through Europe, both Greek and Italian men had the same sort of reputation and the same sort of warnings were offered to young traveling women. I think that young women have to be a little careful when they are entering a region where in recent historical past women have not enjoyed much financial independance.

Because they so obviously are free from the economic constraints of the local woman, some men (obviously not all) may find this sort of threatening. Unasked for sexual type touching is always an assault on the other persons dignity. I doubt if it has much to do with sex. More with contempt and anger, I suspect. And the anger may be simply at the idea that anywhere in the world some women may have more money and power than some men.

traceyam

Very thoughtful insights, snowcrab.

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Nick-H

Jyoti, I can accept your initial leap to the defence of Indian men. If someone else had posted as I did I might have done the same! Of course I know Indian men who are faithful to their wives, treat their daughters respectfully and do not regard every bus journey as chance to touch a female. I never intended to suggest that all Indian men behave in such a way, and I also never intended to make any excuses for the ones that do.

How often does it actually happen? Maybe less often than in Tokyo? Indiamike is not full of complaints from women and I suspect that it is yet another of the India worries that is much exagerated.

However it does happen, and, according to Indian women who have discussed this with me, it happens frequently, as does sexual harrasment in the work place. One unmarried, middle-aged woman has said to me that she is very fed up with suggestions from married managers that she might enhance her income by staying late in the office.

I do believe that the sexual culture of India has a lot to do with it. Jyoti's second post adds depth to the understanding, as does the intersting article Kanbe points to. It has as much to do with general cultural attitudes to women as the situation of young men. India: the country with the world's first woman prime-minister (I think...) but in which most women live as housewives.

snowcrab

"One unmarried, middle-aged woman has said to me that she is very fed up with suggestions from married managers that she might enhance her income by staying late in the office."

The escalation of that sort of dynamic is a manager telling a female employee, "If you want keep your job, you better be nice to me." I suspect that happens also. It's all about bullying and an abuse of power. Happens everywhere. In some places, where women have been in the workforce longer they have sued for and gotten protection in law from that sort of thing. In many offices now even unsolicited off-colour jokes are considered abusive and men have gotten very nervous about ever being perceived to be engaging in anything that could even remotely be considered harrassment..

Indian women haven't been in the office workforce in significant numbers for very long but I'm sure there are men out there who resent that a woman, any woman may be moving upwards into the middle class before they are. It isn't suposed to happen that way. It's a sensitive time in India's history. And like anywhere else women tend to take the brunt of the anger and frustration of men, sometimes expressed in sexual dominance attempts. It's just the way human beings are and one of the not so nice things we do to one another.

Paagla Dashu

I think Nick has done a perfect psychological analysis of the sexual motivations of majority of Indian men. as an Indian myself, I think its accurate - for me.

Does that mean all Indian men behave that way? Only an Indian woman could say - I could not. According to my wife, many do, if the opportunity is there. Its no surprise that many are able to control their sexual instincts:

instinct+education+cultural expectation/norms = behaviour

I only think of Indian wives as more of "Homemakers" than "housewives".

I hope Nick (or ANYONE else) does not find that last comment to be argumentative - its what I felt watching my mother and other women in my family. Thats a very limited experience.

To the OP - getting back to topic, on the question you asked - here are some observations on a different thread.

snowcrab

Glad you are back Paagla Dashu. Interesting conversation.

Now perhaps some Indian men (and non-Indian too) also know that some women reguard innappropriate (ie. unsolicited sexual type behavior in public or in the workplace) as simple assault motivated by rage, sometimes unacknowleged.

Hence, women carrying pepper spray, there was a thread about that that sort of non-plussed some guys on the forum, yogagal's personal combat skills or my favorite, bringing back hat pins.This might be a good thing for men to know.

Actually the only thing you have done to offend me was to try to use Vagina Monologues to justify posting a pinup girl picture. If you get a chance to actually attend a performance, please do so. I know some of the men who attended the performance I went to were quite astonished to find out just the depth of women's antipathy to the world wide habit of violence against women.

One young man had another proble. "Half the time I didn't know what you all were laughing about." But that's another thing all together, the difference between men and women's humor.

snowcrab

Sorry to hear that. What did you think?

machadinha

You gotta hand it to Google though, interesting ads again:

How's about 'Christian Teens & Sex -- Download this Bible Study about helping teens make smart choices' ('While the topic of teens and sex may make you squirm, please hang in there for the sake of young person you know and love'), or 'Chastity & Purity Rings -- Rings to help them say "I don't" before they say "I do"' ('Churches and groups, receive a 15% discount for orders of 10 pieces or more assorted'). nb Maybe this one's more on topic: '"Truth or Bare?" Test: Take the Modesty Fashion Test -- designed to help you dress to bless' ('The only straps showing on a girl of God should be the straps from her cute summer sandals').

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Nick-H

Well thanks, PD: an interesting post.

I don't, by the way, think that there is anything wrong with being a housewife/homemaker. I wouldn't, however, like to be a woman in a society which didn't give me a choice.

phantom

Well.. ok.. lets start with bride-burning. It is normally associated with Dowry. Now Dowry as a tradition was started as a gift to the newly weds. Slowly like all traditions it went from Voluntary to Compulsion or you can say peer-pressure. It starts with those tea-time discussions between the neighbours .. "My daughter-in-law brought these many things .. <very happy> ...how about you ?? " This gives birth to expectations and when those expectations are not met they show their discontent in various ways, sometimes its harrassment (mental/physical), or sometimes it reaches divorce.

Things have improved quite a bit now. I havent heard of a single bride-burning in the last 5-10 yrs. And even earlier I have only read about them in newspapers and watched it in movies. Maybe because the negotiations start a long time before the wedding takes place and is settled issue by the time bride arrives in the new place. and one more thing NOBODY puts up with these things. ... they just happens sometimes and the most you can do is punish the guilty, which gets done very swiftly in such cases. These days there are groom counsellors in India because a lot of women have started to misuse this power.

Now regarding the changed status of Indian women as compared to the GOOD OLD DAYS, I think a lot has to do with the "bad influence" of the west...!!!! It all started with the Mughals invading India. They brought along the "Purdah system" and showed contempt to all the other women without it. And since they were the ruler at that time and very ruthless, this spread very fast. You can make that out. Women from Rajasthan, haryana, UP are the ones who tend to cover their whole body. Southern states are still unaffected, from the evil of "Purdah", IMHO.

Prior to that, India was a very liberal country, we can all make that out with those caves inscriptions. But, as it happens when two diverse cultures meet head on.. they tend to evolve and merge. And so it happened with India.