Orissa temple bars Dalits' entry

cyberhippie · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:11

That's pretty sad oilerman, the superstition/ignorence showed to you and your wife from Indians abroad!!
And your stuff on Buddhism is interesting too. I'll have to search that one out for myself of course to see how much water the theory holds!!

That instituniolised religion/philosophy incorperates social order into it's texts/dictates is just the way it is though.
All religions have hierarchy, via separation or graduation.
I'm sure some Bhuddist leaders monks etc have also been guilty of discrimination, it's the human taint of religious belief, that some are more pious or worthy than others, some put people on pedastels, others follow, human justification enters the fray, power emerges.......... result whatever is needed to maintain the Status Quo as dictated by a "worthy" "guru" and his close band of followers.

I don't think caste belong in this age but I'm unwilling to be as scathing about Brahmins as you are (though I see your reasons clearly) India is in flux right now, a flus that all countries on earth have experienced. As it enters the modern age it struggles to redifine itself, for good or bad the caste system has been in the hearts and minds of Indians as the norm, just the way things are. This will take time, look at the freedom movements all around the world, those fighting for human rights, nothing changed overnight............I don't see how we can demand that India cures all her ails in a short space of time. Hearts and minds have to be won here, that's not an easy task and certainly not in India!!

Vibhu Jindal · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:26

Oilerman....
i am stiff tired of having foreigners tell us...what our history is...
and u sir ..u seem to have turned the whole history...

Buddhist scriptures predates modern hinduism...dude i think if my memory serves me right then round about 600 BC buddhism and Jainism originated...right and i think modern hinduisms foundation was laid round about 2500- 1500 BC ( what is reffered as modern aryan period)...

Even if ur comment is accepted then i wud say that Modern hinduism Predates modern bhuddism by ages...u know why?

coz the original bhuddism which was a sort of reform movement at that time away from ritualistic hinduism, hence was very similar to hinduism....
modern day bhuddism as it exist now...is far cry away from what it was originally.

No problem if u feel that bhudism is superior to hinduism...but hei but in order to impose ur feeling dont tell irrelevant lies...
and plssssssssssssss take some history lessons

greenchutney · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:34

and modern day buddhists are beating the crap out of others in sri lanka.

seriously, i am surprised by his 150 year argument of buddhism predating 'modern hindusim' where is the 150 year thing coming from ...i am curious?

yes, i have my head buried in the sand inspite of all the comments i made in this thread and in my posts in this site.

maybe beam the brahmins out of this planet. that will make you happy.

beam me up krishna...wait krishna was a yadava...yikes......cant have that...

batistuta · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilerman

So again, why is it that only Brahmins can enter the priest hood in Hinduism? I think this nails down exactly how the lower castes are regarded in Hinduism to this day.

How do I know Buddha came before Hinduism, because I am educated and because I feel I have a vested interest in the subject, as my children will be Dalits. At the time of Buddha there where as many as 62 religious cults in India, one of the minor ones at the time, Brahmanism, evolved into Hinduism when in I think around the fourth century (have to check my facts) Brahman kings took control of India and forced Buddhism out, destroying temples and killing leaders and priests. To this point in history if you take the time to read up on archeology in greater India, between 75 and 80% of all religious artifacts recovered are indeed Buddhist. India was the original home to Buddhism. The first thing the Brahmins did was enforce tyranny in the form of the caste system, which your right was practiced by some cults before the Buddha. Only the two highest castes were allowed to own weapons (about 7% of the overall population) there-by eliminating the threat of revolt, and the lower castes (about 80% of the overall population) were denied education making them more easily brain washed by their new relgious leaders. This is the plague that infects India and Indians around the world to this day.

I.

Who is forcing your children to be Dalits,no one is.Please do check your sources cos saying Buddha came before Sanatana dharma is plain crap.Hinduism evolved frm the Brahmin cult.Nice theory by the way.As far as saying Buddhism was run out of India read up a bit about Adi Shankaracharya and his debates with buddhists of his time.He won many of those debates.you have got the facts totally wrong on the caste system IMHO.Weapons owned by two castes is again wrong as that was not the way it used to wrk.
I feel bad abt the deal you got at the hotel in Rome,but the facts you are using are incorrect to say the least.
There are buddhists in this forum and i am yet to see someone stating Buddha comes before Hinduism.

sirensongs · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:48

The reasons (for denying temple entry to perceived non-Hindus on basis of appearance only) given by Hindu authority figures I interviewed were various and sundry - no one even mentioned historic trashing of temples by white people (most of that appears to have been done by Muslims, except in Goa where it was Portuguese). The answers are more like, "because you are unclean if you have eaten beef." But all white people don't eat beef. "But they might have." Yeah, but my Hindu friend Sudesh eats beef all the time and you still let him in! "Well, we don't KNOW that for sure." well, you don't KNOW for sure that I, a 25-year pure veg for instance, eat beef do you? And what about the Hare Krishnas? "I have to go now." No exaggeration....

Don't let em pull the wool honey, they believe us to be a sub-race! If you don't believe me check out the Mulukhi Ain (Nepali constitutional law from the mid 1800s) where we are situated in the "non enslaveable but untouchable" class somewhere between Tibetans, Shudras and Dalits.

capt_mahajan · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:53

Oilerman, you may know first hand the experience of Dalits.

But your history is like geography. All over the place.

Vibhu Jindal · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:57

And we all know that mosft of these mass conversion rallies are more of a show of political strength as it hardly makes any difference to the life of dalits who convert...

Na NICK H...u r a moderater...right....it has become a usual thing with u to appreciate all the crap written...i am surprised at ur appreciation for Oilermans first hand experience...anyway it dosent matter as u usually write irrelevant un-invited crap...

May be next time we see some post by you it might be something sensible rather than some blatant attempt to inflate ur already burgeoning figure of no. of threads posted by you..

greenchutney · Nov 4th, 2006, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

The reasons (for denying temple entry to perceived non-Hindus on basis of appearance only) given by Hindu authority figures I interviewed were various and sundry

hindu authority...?...er...hmmmmm... you interviewed the shankaracharayas..or the vaishnavite jeers? if at all some people consider them these authorities... ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

Don't let em pull the wool honey, they believe us to be a sub-race! If you don't believe me check out the Mulukhi Ain (Nepali constitutional law from the mid 1800s) where we are situated in the "non enslaveable but untouchable" class somewhere between Tibetans, Shudras and Dalits.

and she quotes from 1800s....right......yeah white people are a sub race. can you get copies of this nepali constitution that says this in print about white people..i like to give it to some of my KKK friends.

sirensongs · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:00

Oilerman, I do agree with your assessment of the attempts to enfold other faiths into Hinduism by law and by force. But what is the source for saying Buddha came before Hindus and Hinduism, usually defined as having started (historically anyway, who knows before that) with the Vedas?

When I was in the Shedra school in Boudha, they talked of Gautama Buddha being not the first (as most people think) but the third in a line of Buddhas. Does it involve that, and who were the first few Buddhas? I never got a clear idea of that part of the tradition.

Vibhu Jindal · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorge Reverter

I don't know why the priest of a temple have always the last word in India ??? Probably is a question of tradition or may be only custom. I would like to know why

it happens.

Jorge

well was the second post but had to answer this because ...in India it has been a ritual to allow religious stupidity to continue ....so what if maulwis order Imrana to marry her rapist father-in-law or Christian priest chides christians on not having more kids in Kerela....in the same spirit no body objects to Lord Jagannath's temples priests high handedness....
by the way ....Technically Lord Mountbatten was also a malechch...who shoudlnt be allowed in the temple...but he was allowed as he was the Viceroy of India...
at the same time Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar and Indira Gandhi weren't allowed inside the temple.

sirensongs · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:04

Quote:

and she quotes from 1800s....

I'm quoting from it because it's still the law of the land in Nepal, and part of the constitution. Whole groups of people are still considered as "enslaveable" and "nonenslaveable,' "touchable" and "untouchable" (and yet another configuration, "untouchable but not requiring purification after contact/untouchable and requiring purification after contact") in the eyes of the law.

There are lots of laws from the 1800s and earlier still on the books in most countries. Nothing strange about quoting from them when they are still valid.

The authorities (in this particular case) were various figures from the Vishwa Hindu Mahasanga (World Hindu Federation) and related bodies, who just had a three-day convention here. The president, secretary, treasurer, and so on. Have you personally interviewed any higher authorities?

I would be curious to know what, if anything, the Shankaracharya of Kanchi (for example), or any of the Mahamandaleshwars, says about such things. I wouldn't imagine it to be terribly different in the case of the Kanchi SC, since his own temple bars foreigners.

Who are the "Jeers"?

greenchutney · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

The president, secretary, treasurer, and so on. Have you personally interviewed any higher authorities?

higher or lower authorities...the VHM must be a north indian thing...and i dont know what authority they claim..they have no standing anywhere in the south...or north i would think as well..

yes..i have talked and debated with people who think they are the authorities..mainly priests... debated over a dress code of all things...since this ultra conservative 'authority' didnt like the way i was dressed...(yeah i was decent with pants on)....yeah...that too for a side-function not a temple event.

no i havent talked to the shankaracharya or jeer...but i have heard him speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirensongs

Who are the "Jeers"?

the figureheads in the vaishnavite philosophy - shankaracharya equivalents. melakotte, ahobilam...you can search on the net.

sirensongs · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:19

Quote:

yes..i have talked and debated with people who think they are the authorities.

Who are they? What are their names? From what you said, they are not in fact authorities ("they think they are...."). Are they higher authorities than Mr Bharat Kesari Simha, Mr Diwaker Chander and Mr BinodMan Rajbhandari? or Mr Madhav Bhattarai, personal jyotish and acharya to the King of Nepal?

Did you bring up this particular subject with the people you interviewed? What did they say? I would like to hear a variety of opinions and reasonings about this (temple entry).

I should add that there are some organizations, like Arya Samaj, that do believe anyone can convert to Hinduism and offer a conversion program with papers to prove it. I know of a couple examples of foreigners who did this entering temples in Kerala (only after showing papers).

It would not be accurate to imply that *all* Hindu authorities agree on this, or anything else for that matter. But a bunch of old dudes who have styled themselves, and/or are popularly perceived as, guardians of the faith certainly seem to.

greenchutney · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:29

first of all, there is no higher or lower authorities (other than jee--oh-dee)for all hindus to be honest. they day that happens, come talk to me...some of us will be very happy. atleast we will that one person for everything..for villification, for glorification what not...

i dont know who all this characters you spoke to are...and they are pretty irrelevant to be honest in their sphere of influence unlike the pope .....and they pattern or think themselves like this. they might have in nepal...but they are nonames in india..for average street ravi...

the 'authorities' that i mention are your local temple priests...some 'experts' that come from outoftown to deliver talks and that family priests....and yes some of these are old farts who's expiry date is long gone...and i say that with specific thought about their understanding of contemprorary soceity

like i said earlier, you can enter the padamanabaswamy temple..if you go through the screening process at ramakrishna mission. i was scheduled to take my non-hindu friends but we ran out of time in our itenary.

what the arya samaj does also needs to mentioned. its just a matter of time when misconceptions and perceptions of 'white' skin is lifted and percolated through the temple beaurocracy and the so called gate masters as well.... at the same time, there will be ultra conservative pockets with their own intrepertations and we must respect that as long as they dont preach conversions, violence and disturb whatever.....let them carry it on as a private club. they will die out eventually with the way the birth rates are falling and new generations if any left balk at their orthodoxy...

sirensongs · Nov 4th, 2006, 23:36

first of all, there is no higher or lower authorities (other than jee--oo-dee)for all hindus to be honest.

There are certainly no centralized authorities like a Vatican, but there are respected figures at various levels of influence (like the SCharya).

I asked a direct question - who did you interview, did you ask them about this specific issue and what did they say? You didn't answer, just disparaged the authority of my interviewees. About half the attendees were from India, by the way. The Indian sadhus, including member of Parliament and Hindu nationalist Adityanath from UP, did not seem to think these people were "nobodies."

The "average Ravi on the street" doesn't know who the S.Charya is either.

We can be grateful (IMHO) that there is no centralized governing board or body for Hinduism! More diverse that way...less organized too! ;-)

Why should any practicing Hindu who identifies as such be required to go through any kind of clearance process based on appearance?

ultra conservative pockets with their own intrepertations and we must respect that as long as they dont preach conversions, violence

Sure, they don't preach conversions - not out of a "live and let live" policy but because of a deep-seated belief, which is backed up by "tradition," that no one else is *good* enough to be Hindu. This is not a benign policy, but one of hatred and alienation - for Dalits and everyone else they bar. I disagree that it will just fade away; it has not, for thousands of years. People are not required to respect "traditions" that do not respect them.

Nov 4th, 2006, 22:26	#62
Vibhu Jindal Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 423	Oilerman.... i am stiff tired of having foreigners tell us...what our history is... and u sir ..u seem to have turned the whole history... Buddhist scriptures predates modern hinduism...dude i think if my memory serves me right then round about 600 BC buddhism and Jainism originated...right and i think modern hinduisms foundation was laid round about 2500- 1500 BC ( what is reffered as modern aryan period)... Even if ur comment is accepted then i wud say that Modern hinduism Predates modern bhuddism by ages...u know why? coz the original bhuddism which was a sort of reform movement at that time away from ritualistic hinduism, hence was very similar to hinduism.... modern day bhuddism as it exist now...is far cry away from what it was originally. No problem if u feel that bhudism is superior to hinduism...but hei but in order to impose ur feeling dont tell irrelevant lies... and plssssssssssssss take some history lessons Last edited by Vibhu Jindal : Nov 5th, 2006 at 12:29.

Nov 4th, 2006, 22:48	#65
sirensongs Eeny meeny mango Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: All India Permit (somewhere between Delhi & Dharamsala) Posts: 1,213	The reasons (for denying temple entry to perceived non-Hindus on basis of appearance only) given by Hindu authority figures I interviewed were various and sundry - no one even mentioned historic trashing of temples by white people (most of that appears to have been done by Muslims, except in Goa where it was Portuguese). The answers are more like, "because you are unclean if you have eaten beef." But all white people don't eat beef. "But they might have." Yeah, but my Hindu friend Sudesh eats beef all the time and you still let him in! "Well, we don't KNOW that for sure." well, you don't KNOW for sure that I, a 25-year pure veg for instance, eat beef do you? And what about the Hare Krishnas? "I have to go now." No exaggeration.... Don't let em pull the wool honey, they believe us to be a sub-race! If you don't believe me check out the Mulukhi Ain (Nepali constitutional law from the mid 1800s) where we are situated in the "non enslaveable but untouchable" class somewhere between Tibetans, Shudras and Dalits. __________________ *"Why do people go to India to find themselves? India is where you go to lose* yourself."** Feringhee: The India Diaries

Nov 4th, 2006, 22:57	#67
Vibhu Jindal Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mumbai Posts: 423	And we all know that mosft of these mass conversion rallies are more of a show of political strength as it hardly makes any difference to the life of dalits who convert... Na NICK H...u r a moderater...right....it has become a usual thing with u to appreciate all the crap written...i am surprised at ur appreciation for Oilermans first hand experience...anyway it dosent matter as u usually write irrelevant un-invited crap... May be next time we see some post by you it might be something sensible rather than some blatant attempt to inflate ur already burgeoning figure of no. of threads posted by you.. Last edited by Vibhu Jindal : Nov 5th, 2006 at 12:30.

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Nov 4th, 2006, 22:11	#61
cyberhippie Account Closed by User's Request Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 6,012	That's pretty sad oilerman, the superstition/ignorence showed to you and your wife from Indians abroad!! And your stuff on Buddhism is interesting too. I'll have to search that one out for myself of course to see how much water the theory holds!! That instituniolised religion/philosophy incorperates social order into it's texts/dictates is just the way it is though. All religions have hierarchy, via separation or graduation. I'm sure some Bhuddist leaders monks etc have also been guilty of discrimination, it's the human taint of religious belief, that some are more pious or worthy than others, some put people on pedastels, others follow, human justification enters the fray, power emerges.......... result whatever is needed to maintain the Status Quo as dictated by a "worthy" "guru" and his close band of followers. I don't think caste belong in this age but I'm unwilling to be as scathing about Brahmins as you are (though I see your reasons clearly) India is in flux right now, a flus that all countries on earth have experienced. As it enters the modern age it struggles to redifine itself, for good or bad the caste system has been in the hearts and minds of Indians as the norm, just the way things are. This will take time, look at the freedom movements all around the world, those fighting for human rights, nothing changed overnight............I don't see how we can demand that India cures all her ails in a short space of time. Hearts and minds have to be won here, that's not an easy task and certainly not in India!!

Nov 4th, 2006, 22:34	#63
greenchutney Account Closed Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: planet earth Posts: 1,578	and modern day buddhists are beating the crap out of others in sri lanka. seriously, i am surprised by his 150 year argument of buddhism predating 'modern hindusim' where is the 150 year thing coming from ...i am curious? yes, i have my head buried in the sand inspite of all the comments i made in this thread and in my posts in this site. maybe beam the brahmins out of this planet. that will make you happy. beam me up krishna...wait krishna was a yadava...yikes......cant have that...

Nov 4th, 2006, 22:53	#66
capt_mahajan (in charge of navel affairs) Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 10,575	Oilerman, you may know first hand the experience of Dalits. But your history is like geography. All over the place.

Nov 4th, 2006, 23:00	#69
sirensongs Eeny meeny mango Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: All India Permit (somewhere between Delhi & Dharamsala) Posts: 1,213	Oilerman, I do agree with your assessment of the attempts to enfold other faiths into Hinduism by law and by force. But what is the source for saying Buddha came before Hindus and Hinduism, usually defined as having started (historically anyway, who knows before that) with the Vedas? When I was in the Shedra school in Boudha, they talked of Gautama Buddha being not the first (as most people think) but the third in a line of Buddhas. Does it involve that, and who were the first few Buddhas? I never got a clear idea of that part of the tradition.

Nov 4th, 2006, 23:29	#74
greenchutney Account Closed Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: planet earth Posts: 1,578	first of all, there is no higher or lower authorities (other than jee--oh-dee)for all hindus to be honest. they day that happens, come talk to me...some of us will be very happy. atleast we will that one person for everything..for villification, for glorification what not... i dont know who all this characters you spoke to are...and they are pretty irrelevant to be honest in their sphere of influence unlike the pope .....and they pattern or think themselves like this. they might have in nepal...but they are nonames in india..for average street ravi... the 'authorities' that i mention are your local temple priests...some 'experts' that come from outoftown to deliver talks and that family priests....and yes some of these are old farts who's expiry date is long gone...and i say that with specific thought about their understanding of contemprorary soceity like i said earlier, you can enter the padamanabaswamy temple..if you go through the screening process at ramakrishna mission. i was scheduled to take my non-hindu friends but we ran out of time in our itenary. what the arya samaj does also needs to mentioned. its just a matter of time when misconceptions and perceptions of 'white' skin is lifted and percolated through the temple beaurocracy and the so called gate masters as well.... at the same time, there will be ultra conservative pockets with their own intrepertations and we must respect that as long as they dont preach conversions, violence and disturb whatever.....let them carry it on as a private club. they will die out eventually with the way the birth rates are falling and new generations if any left balk at their orthodoxy...

Nov 4th, 2006, 23:36	#75
sirensongs Eeny meeny mango Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: All India Permit (somewhere between Delhi & Dharamsala) Posts: 1,213	first of all, there is no higher or lower authorities (other than jee--oo-dee)for all hindus to be honest. There are certainly no centralized authorities like a Vatican, but there are respected figures at various levels of influence (like the SCharya). I asked a direct question - who did you interview, did you ask them about this specific issue and what did they say? You didn't answer, just disparaged the authority of my interviewees. About half the attendees were from India, by the way. The Indian sadhus, including member of Parliament and Hindu nationalist Adityanath from UP, did not seem to think these people were "nobodies." The "average Ravi on the street" doesn't know who the S.Charya is either. We can be grateful (IMHO) that there is no centralized governing board or body for Hinduism! More diverse that way...less organized too! ;-) Why should any practicing Hindu who identifies as such be required to go through any kind of clearance process based on appearance? ultra conservative pockets with their own intrepertations and we must respect that as long as they dont preach conversions, violence Sure, they don't preach conversions - not out of a "live and let live" policy but because of a deep-seated belief, which is backed up by "tradition," that no one else is good enough to be Hindu. This is not a benign policy, but one of hatred and alienation - for Dalits and everyone else they bar. I disagree that it will just fade away; it has not, for thousands of years. People are not required to respect "traditions" that do not respect them.

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