Orissa temple bars Dalits' entry

seraph · Nov 2nd, 2006, 23:16

From NDTV

"For 400 years Dalits have not been allowed into a temple in Orissa's Kendrapara district, despite caste not being an issue at the famous Jagannath temple at Puri.

Last year four Dalit girls who defied the ban were humiliated and fined. But now the Dalits, emboldened by the support from outside, have decided to force their entry on November 19 come what may.

For the last 400 years since its inception, the Jagannath temple in Kerada-Garh in Kendrapara district has never allowed a Dalit to enter.

The only way they can have a glimpse of the Gods is through the nine peeping-holes in the temple's outer wall."

Also in CNN-IBN.

Jorge Reverter · Nov 2nd, 2006, 23:48

I don't know why the priest of a temple have always the last word in India ??? Probably is a question of tradition or may be only custom. I would like to know why

it happens.

Jorge

freenote · Nov 2nd, 2006, 23:54

I know i should keep my nose out of other peoples business , but , that looks like an excellent battle , fight . Thats our god in there, are we unworthy

HerbyGreens · Nov 3rd, 2006, 03:12

Quote:

Originally every caste was given equal importance. Later, as time passed, vested interests crept in. Caste, originally determined by the qualities and aptitudes of the individual, was made hereditary by self-interested people in positions of power and authority. As a result, some castes were made superior or "higher" and others inferior or "lower." The caste system is likened to the class system, based on wealth, that is found in Europe. The caste system gradually expanded to include several sub-castes (jati), along with a class of outcastes (now known as Dalits) and the practice of social discrimination of the Shūdra and Dalit classes.

Today it is often debated whether the caste system is an integral part of the Hindu religion sanctioned by the scriptures or or is simply an outdated social custom. The caste system is observed today especially among rural and uneducated Hindus; it is not observed as much in large cities, and the government of India has passed several laws attempting to remedy the problem of caste discrimination.

The most ancient scriptures—the Shruti texts, or Vedas—place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only rarely and in a cursory manner. Later scriptures, however, such as the Bhagavad Gītā state that the four varna divisions are created by God, and the Manusmriti categorizes the different castes.

However, at the same time, the Gītā says that one's varna is to be understood from one's personal qualities and one's work, not one's birth. A hymn from the Rig Veda seems to indicate that one's caste is not necessarily determined by that of one's family:

"I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn."

Thus, while the scriptures contain some passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system as it exists today is not sanctioned, and both sides in the debate are able to find scriptural support for their views.

Many social reformers, including Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948), have criticized the problems caused by the degenerated caste system. The saint and religious teacher Sri Ramakrishna (1836-1886) taught that

"lovers of God do not belong to any caste . . . . A brahmin without this love is no longer a brahmin. And a pariah with the love of God is no longer a pariah. Through bhakti (devotion to God) an untouchable becomes pure and elevated."

..wikipedia..

crvlvr · Nov 3rd, 2006, 03:29

How do the priest know who the Dalits are, in order to stop them from entering? There are no identifying marks, and the Dalits don't look any different.

Merchant · Nov 3rd, 2006, 03:37

Fundamentalist groups claim to able to tell caste by sight.

It's also a pretty safe bet that the people who are obviously poor, malnourished and dressed in rags, are dalits.

One sign you often see posted in temples in the South is "No lungis." This effectively bars dalits, who have nothing else to wear.

seraph · Nov 3rd, 2006, 08:21

Herby Greens, I am not really sure what the point of your excerpt is...

Whether or not caste should or shouldn't exist, it clearly still does (as this, no doubt extreme case, proves).

There are alot of theories out there regarding caste - not surprisingly, the most fashionable one in American academia today is that all of this was invented by the Brits so that they could lord over India unfettered. OK, so the theory is a little more sophisticated than that, but this is what it boils down to. (Check out Nicholas Dirks and his book Castes of Mind)

As for how villagers can tell what caste someone is from... In this particular case, the temple is in a village of 1,400 people. I lived in a village of comparable size and can report that: 1) In Orissa most villages are caste based (meaning by jati) and the Dalits live within these villages as a separate and unequal entity. Most village have a "Hari Sahi" and/or a "Doma Sahi" or "neighborhoods" where the Dalits live. 2) In a village of this size everyone knows literally EVERYONE (and what caste they belong to). 3) Outsiders are not given immediate access to the sanctum sanctorum of temples until they have been thoroughly interrogated. There are many ways for the priests to elicit caste (surname, knowledge-base, clothing, kin).

Digital Drifter · Nov 3rd, 2006, 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merchant

[...]

One sign you often see posted in temples in the South is "No lungis." This effectively bars dalits, who have nothing else to wear.

ummm...The South with all its issues has been more emancipated than the rest of the country. Dalits are poor in general but not that poor. If they're Hindus(given that a large %age have converted to other religions), they do enter temples wearing Dhotis.

During Pongal (harvest season) festival, it is customary to wear a dhoti, however poor they are.

As to why 'no lungis' but 'no trousers' and such, it beats me.

New-South-Welshman · Nov 3rd, 2006, 09:52

More like a country club than a temple.

vmehra24 · Nov 3rd, 2006, 09:52

What beats me is why they would even want to go where they are clearly not wanted.

Nick-H · Nov 3rd, 2006, 10:18

That used to be said about women in the days of much greater discrimination against them in the West. Its not an argument, so far as the principle of the thing goes.

So far as the practice goes; yes --- I tend to take a 'sod you then' attitude to the fact that my white skin bars me from many Indian temples.

Caste discrimination is alive and well in India, progressive elements even include the Indian Courts: a recent inter-caste marriage resulted in a court case in which the judges refused to accept the castist atitudes of the family bringing the case, slammed the lack of protection given by the police, and made clear instruction that the police must always protect intimidated members of intercaste marriages, going so far as to say that intercaste marriages were the very future of India! So judges can be a grteat deal less backward than priests (or temple committees)!

nomad · Nov 3rd, 2006, 10:56

herby i have read parts of the document called Manu-Smriti. this book provides the rules for cast system in india. according to this book caste is decided by birth and caste decides what work you can do i.e. what you are allowed to do.

some of the ugly once from that book

only occupation prescribed by Lord for shudras (dalits) is serving the other three casts.

if a high caste man sleeps with a dalit woman, his caste does not affected
but if a high caste lady sleeps with a dalit man, she straight away becomes dalit and goes to hell after death.

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence.

I want dalits of orrisa to defiy the age old law. and if the hindu society opposes that, convert to other religion that gives you equal rights and treats you like a human being.

PS - i am a hindu.

capt_mahajan · Nov 3rd, 2006, 11:12

Even though I have not been inside a practicing temple for decades,

If I was a dalit, would I subscribe to a violent agitation against this kind of thing? Yes.

There are 130 million Dalits in India, give or take. (1991 census figures).

God help us if they agree with me.

greenchutney · Nov 3rd, 2006, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomad

herby i have read parts of the document called Manu-Smriti. this book provides the rules for cast system in india. according to this book caste is decided by birth and caste decides what work you can do i.e. what you are allowed to do.

and i bet you read the old british, western and/or vatican translation

there is plenty of controversy about the manu smriti. the completeness of it, the origins of it, the translations and interpretations of it and all sorts of other stuff.

yes, i agree we need to need to adapt to the times and give entry to one and all.

nick, the whole foreigner/non-hindu entry into temples has some legitimate reasons as well...

and merchant, as with the indian coffee comment, this lungi comment of yours is ridiculous to say the least.

nomad · Nov 3rd, 2006, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenchutney

and i bet you read the old british, western and/or vatican translation

possible. may be yes.

but this is what i have read myself and i don't need any vatican translation for this.

[hindi text]
Dhol, ganwar, shudra, pashu, nari
sakal tadana ke adhikari

my translation -
drum(music instrument), fellas from village, dalits (low cast), livestock and women should be beaten everyday

this is from one of our famous epics called ramacharitmanas. this book is recited everyday in lot of north indian houses.
wise men in my village (so i am assuming every village :-) ), teachers, priests quote text from this book to prove their point, and everyone else agrees.

Nov 2nd, 2006, 23:16	#1
seraph Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Vaikuntha Dham Posts: 443	Orissa temple bars Dalits' entry From NDTV "For 400 years Dalits have not been allowed into a temple in Orissa's Kendrapara district, despite caste not being an issue at the famous Jagannath temple at Puri. Last year four Dalit girls who defied the ban were humiliated and fined. But now the Dalits, emboldened by the support from outside, have decided to force their entry on November 19 come what may. For the last 400 years since its inception, the Jagannath temple in Kerada-Garh in Kendrapara district has never allowed a Dalit to enter. The only way they can have a glimpse of the Gods is through the nine peeping-holes in the temple's outer wall." Also in CNN-IBN.

Nov 3rd, 2006, 09:52	#9
New-South-Welshman Drunk Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, NSW Posts: 1,313	More like a country club than a temple. __________________ Mr. Burns "Non-violence never solved anything!"

Nov 3rd, 2006, 10:18	#11
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 25,765	That used to be said about women in the days of much greater discrimination against them in the West. Its not an argument, so far as the principle of the thing goes. So far as the practice goes; yes --- I tend to take a 'sod you then' attitude to the fact that my white skin bars me from many Indian temples. Caste discrimination is alive and well in India, progressive elements even include the Indian Courts: a recent inter-caste marriage resulted in a court case in which the judges refused to accept the castist atitudes of the family bringing the case, slammed the lack of protection given by the police, and made clear instruction that the police must always protect intimidated members of intercaste marriages, going so far as to say that intercaste marriages were the very future of India! So judges can be a grteat deal less backward than priests (or temple committees)! __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Nov 3rd, 2006, 10:56	#12
nomad Maha Guru Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Singapura Posts: 609	herby i have read parts of the document called Manu-Smriti. this book provides the rules for cast system in india. according to this book caste is decided by birth and caste decides what work you can do i.e. what you are allowed to do. some of the ugly once from that book only occupation prescribed by Lord for shudras (dalits) is serving the other three casts. if a high caste man sleeps with a dalit woman, his caste does not affected but if a high caste lady sleeps with a dalit man, she straight away becomes dalit and goes to hell after death. Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence. I want dalits of orrisa to defiy the age old law. and if the hindu society opposes that, convert to other religion that gives you equal rights and treats you like a human being. PS - i am a hindu. __________________ Rahul Verma http://rverma.smugmug.com www.pbase.com/rverma

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Nov 2nd, 2006, 23:48	#2
Jorge Reverter Maha Guru Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Murcia - Spain Posts: 1,106	I don't know why the priest of a temple have always the last word in India ??? Probably is a question of tradition or may be only custom. I would like to know why it happens. Jorge

Nov 2nd, 2006, 23:54	#3
freenote senior member refused Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: cornwall UK Posts: 1,505	I know i should keep my nose out of other peoples business , but , that looks like an excellent battle , fight . Thats our god in there, are we unworthy

Nov 3rd, 2006, 03:29	#5
crvlvr Guru Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hollywood Posts: 4,413	How do the priest know who the Dalits are, in order to stop them from entering? There are no identifying marks, and the Dalits don't look any different.

Nov 3rd, 2006, 03:37	#6
Merchant Maha Guru Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: New York Posts: 2,079	Fundamentalist groups claim to able to tell caste by sight. It's also a pretty safe bet that the people who are obviously poor, malnourished and dressed in rags, are dalits. One sign you often see posted in temples in the South is "No lungis." This effectively bars dalits, who have nothing else to wear.

Nov 3rd, 2006, 08:21	#7
seraph Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Vaikuntha Dham Posts: 443	Herby Greens, I am not really sure what the point of your excerpt is... Whether or not caste should or shouldn't exist, it clearly still does (as this, no doubt extreme case, proves). There are alot of theories out there regarding caste - not surprisingly, the most fashionable one in American academia today is that all of this was invented by the Brits so that they could lord over India unfettered. OK, so the theory is a little more sophisticated than that, but this is what it boils down to. (Check out Nicholas Dirks and his book Castes of Mind) As for how villagers can tell what caste someone is from... In this particular case, the temple is in a village of 1,400 people. I lived in a village of comparable size and can report that: 1) In Orissa most villages are caste based (meaning by jati) and the Dalits live within these villages as a separate and unequal entity. Most village have a "Hari Sahi" and/or a "Doma Sahi" or "neighborhoods" where the Dalits live. 2) In a village of this size everyone knows literally EVERYONE (and what caste they belong to). 3) Outsiders are not given immediate access to the sanctum sanctorum of temples until they have been thoroughly interrogated. There are many ways for the priests to elicit caste (surname, knowledge-base, clothing, kin).

Nov 3rd, 2006, 09:52	#10
vmehra24 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ahmedabad Posts: 195	What beats me is why they would even want to go where they are clearly not wanted.

Nov 3rd, 2006, 11:12	#13
capt_mahajan (in charge of navel affairs) Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: India Posts: 9,715	Even though I have not been inside a practicing temple for decades, If I was a dalit, would I subscribe to a violent agitation against this kind of thing? Yes. There are 130 million Dalits in India, give or take. (1991 census figures). God help us if they agree with me.

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