Moving from London to Bangalore?

machadinha · May 5th, 2008, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazha

Um, if you are saying that the expat margin is intended to offset some of that relocation pain

Nah, not really. But that it seems to be what many people might want/expect

You see, other than you guys coming to us, us coming to you is something of a blessing -- for reasons that will presumably be divulged in heaven

(I'm just fooling around of course. More mundanely, I guess it's the way the market works. But apparently the margin does partly fulfill that function though -- all that pain of having to live in a gated and fully-serviced compound with a bunch of servants, y'know, and all that other stuff most of us never get to do at home. Imagine the sheer culture shock!)

As for those Twinkies peeps, yeh; a colleague and I once had to find out about Tibetan dialects. Checking through our university department, we were promptly and enthusiastically emailed back by some scientist and countryman of ours who was on the ground, more-or-less on the spot where we were looking for. Turned out his department was in the business of recording and hopefully preserving the dozens of local languages there that are on the verge of extinction because hardly anyone speaks them anymore.

Remarked said colleague, Luckily we can't all be systems managers.

(But hey, I like my chips crispy too. I guess we all gotta do what we gotta do.)

Anyway, even more mundanely I think I was saying few foreigners will manage to live like the average Indian might.

traveller.1 · May 5th, 2008, 23:44

Guys, I said to myself that I am not going to get into this debate. But guess what I'm jumping right in "where angels fear to tread". The arguments put forth by Mazha are I supect personal feelings. My guess would be that he is one of those PHds that has chosen the placidity of a govt research job for little money, less responsibility, and a lot of job security.

That is fine if he doesn't resent it. You cant make the money that entrepreneurs, risk takers and pioneers make. You choose placid sereniy over dynamic evolution. 30 grand/year is less than 15 bucks an hour. In the US receptionists in offices get that. They have high school diplomas and not much more. That is about USD2400/month. London girl by contrast is being paid about USD1200/month and that does not include as machanda says the expat margin.

Why is this debate justifying poverty. All I am saying is that London Girl's company is paying her a wage that only London girl will accept. INR50000is approcimately USD1200/month that is 4 weeks of 48 hours each in India = 192 hours of work. That equals 6.25 per hour before taxes. In the west that is nothing, actually less than minimum wage. Dont you get it? Federal asistance is more than that.

If as a PHd you have chosen 30 grand a year as your worth, because you like the life style, it is still 250% of what london girl is going to make.

The argument that, that is the wage prevalent in India is meaningless. Indians go to the west because there is more money. No one goes for the same wage as in India. If you could get 30000 in Calcutta, and you were a Bengali from Calcutta, would you go to Bombay for 25000, because it would be an adventure. That is what London girl is being asked to do.

And again may be Mazha you too are being shafted by your company if they are giving you 30 grand. They need to do better and quit exploiting you. To do well in life you need 2 things brains and balls. You obviously have the brains.
So shape your destiny.

Nick-H · May 5th, 2008, 23:48

Its very simple: somebody seeking work in a foreign country should, most emphatically, not expect to command any more than the local rate. Why should anyone be paid for being foreign?

On the other hand, somebody being posted abroad, even if it is to a place they are interested in and keen to spend time in, should be amply compensated for being away from home. They will probably have increased expenses, in some ways, due to keeping their home property in order etc.

Whilst some senior expat employees in India live a very, very nice life, the head-office employees at my Japanese employers did almost as well in London --- rent paid, school fees paid, private medical and dental expenses (everyone used to take the opportunity to get their teeth fixed) paid, the expense accounts got clamped down on, but had been generous previously...

traveller.1 · May 5th, 2008, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

Its very simple: somebody seeking work in a foreign country should, most emphatically, not expect to command any more than the local rate. Why should anyone be paid for being foreign?

On the other hand, somebody being posted abroad, even if it is to a place they are interested in and keen to spend time in, should be amply compensated for being away from home. They will probably have increased expenses, in some ways, due to keeping their home property in order etc.

Are not these statements contradictory? I command more in India than in the US because I alone can do in Indi what others can not. If another Americn can do it for less then he will come here not me. If another Indian can do it for less then he will get the job. I get it because I am unique. just as London Girl is. The fact that they are sending her here should scream out loud that she is the best candidate for the job. Obviously another can not do it;.

Ignite · May 5th, 2008, 23:57

I think all of your arguments scared the OP away.

machadinha · May 5th, 2008, 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveller.1

Guys, I said to myself that I am not going to get into this debate.

Er, to me it's not a debate, and if there's one thread I didn't mean to be contentious or confrontational about it's this one. I'm just interested in getting a feel for the realities of it.

To call a research job, govt.-funded or otherwise, "placid" or whatnot, is your own value judgement, Traveller. I for one think it's uncalled for, and it doesn't really seem to be what the question was about.

I agree with Nick's take on it, I think those are basically the two different perspectives we're looking at, indeed. But I don't see any reason to imply (or actually state out loud) that all those who don't (or can't) join the rat race are somehow sub-beings who need some "balls."

ps Traveller, it's not at all clear if Londongirl was being sent from home or had applied for a job there, which clearly lies at the heart of your argument though, and I understand it from that perspective. It would be nice to hear back from her; let's hope it happens.

traveller.1 · May 6th, 2008, 00:11

Machadinha, I think you are right. It was uncalled for. I am however so convinced that London Girl is being wronged and not getting a fair shake that I really really believe that her employers need to do a lot better.

Having said that, I do concede that the Rat race is not necessarily the only way of life.

Nick-H · May 6th, 2008, 00:19

Indeed... It is about choices, and combinations, and I don't see any arguments here, really, just different points of view, along, of course, with different personal priorities and choices.

My priority in life was never work. Having said that, I was not bad at what I did, and when required I took the responsibility I was paid to take and worked very hard. However, I much preferred the comfortable-niche job that I had where that was intermittent, to potentially multiplying my salary by using the same skills in a London banking/trading systems environment where I would have been expected to die on the job before going home.

You could say that I joined the rat race but stayed in the slow lane!

But the cosy secure-for-life jobs, whether public or private, really are no more in UK. I lost mine!

mazha · May 6th, 2008, 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveller.1

And again may be Mazha you too are being shafted by your company if they are giving you 30 grand. They need to do better and quit exploiting you. To do well in life you need 2 things brains and balls. You obviously have the brains.
So shape your destiny.

I work for a university, and the university gets money from the government. So if anything, I am being shafted by the Canadian government. I have done the same work in the US as well, so heaven-of-capitalism notwithstanding, the US govt also screws you because they can. And it is not just me, it is almost everyone who has done a Ph.D. and wanting to stay in academic/basic research, including in places like Stanford and MIT. Having balls (or not) is not gonna help when the job you seek requires massive infrastructure and is funded by the government.

You are lucky that your job **could** only be done by you and it was with an employer who had money to spare, and therefore you **could** quote your salary (but I would say that wouldn't last long, especially in India). That doesn't necessarily mean you have balls, neither does it mean that everyone is in the same position, and I personally consider it bad advice when you ask a beginner to bargain for more money, not knowing anything about the contexts of the offer.

And I agree with Nick on not giving someone a salary margin just because the person comes from a system where everything is expensive. This is worse in the Gulf, where people with western passports get more salary and perks, even though they would be doing the same work as folks from India and China and Egypt. The Arabs consider white people trophy employees!

brishti · May 6th, 2008, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

On the other hand, somebody being posted abroad, even if it is to a place they are interested in and keen to spend time in, should be amply compensated for being away from home. They will probably have increased expenses, in some ways, due to keeping their home property in order etc.

i doubt indians get compensatory monies for moving to the west -

will stand corrected if i'm mistaken.

:brishti

Nick-H · May 6th, 2008, 14:23

If they are posted there by their own companies in india, of course they have to be paid enough to live there. I doubt that many of them get the ex-pat 'packages' including house and education and stuff, though, unless maybe they are already part of that elite here that command salaries equivalent to European/USA; the modern-day maharajas!

londongirl9 · May 6th, 2008, 15:29

Hello All,

Wow - I seemed to have caused quite a debate. I can now clear a few things up...

I am not being posted abroad, I am taking a job with an Indian company which is totally different to the type of work I do in London (I am an Estate Agent in London and am going to work for a Travel company in Bangalore) So the Salary I am taking (And yes I have accepted the position) is a Local salary and not an Ex-Pat salary.

I am youngish (29) single with no commitments back home. The rent on my flat will cover my UK outgoings. So what I earn in India is for me to spend in India as I please. I understand I can rent a one bedroom apartment for about a fifth of my monthly salary and at present in London I pay about a quarter in rent so, I am thinking I should be ok. I also have a bit of savings that I can dip into for trips etc.

After lots of deliberating, I see this as an opportunity to experience a totally new life and have an adventure before I decide to marry, settle down etc.

Does Traveller.1 still think I am doing the wrong thing..? You guys are making me worried!!

Nick-H · May 6th, 2008, 15:40

Glad to see you posting here again.

Yes, we've had quite a debate about various issues --- that's life on this site

.

You've cleared up the main issue, though, which is that you are not being sent to India by a British or International company, so I think we're all agreed that there is no reason you should be paid more than a local, and the pay you mentioned seems pretty good in local terms. They must want you a lot!

Have you got your employment visa sorted out? Hope that goes without any problems for you.

Best of luck in your new venture: when you are coming to India?

londongirl9 · May 6th, 2008, 15:45

I'm just trying to sort my Visa now, so fingers crossed it will all be ok!
I should be in India on 2nd August, so plenty of time to sort it out, and also enjoy some of this British Summer we are all suddenly enjoying
I just hope I’ll be able to live comfortably enough in Bangalore without living on the breadline..! If I’m honest this is my main concern as well as missing friends, family etc. The things we do for an adventure!
One thing I do realise that expat clubs tend to meet in the more expensive hotels etc. And if I choose to follow this route, I'll be looking at spending a lot I suppose. I'll just have to flutter those eyelashes!!

Nick-H · May 6th, 2008, 16:07

You will be very, very far from the breadline!

In fact I'll be expecting lunch if you travel to Chennai!

In fact, a quick glance back over the thread, and it looks as if you'll be buying lunches in Bangalore itself, as well as Chennai, Mumbai and Hyderabad

May 5th, 2008, 23:48	#33
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 25,825	Its very simple: somebody seeking work in a foreign country should, most emphatically, not expect to command any more than the local rate. Why should anyone be paid for being foreign? On the other hand, somebody being posted abroad, even if it is to a place they are interested in and keen to spend time in, should be amply compensated for being away from home. They will probably have increased expenses, in some ways, due to keeping their home property in order etc. Whilst some senior expat employees in India live a very, very nice life, the head-office employees at my Japanese employers did almost as well in London --- rent paid, school fees paid, private medical and dental expenses (everyone used to take the opportunity to get their teeth fixed) paid, the expense accounts got clamped down on, but had been generous previously... __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

May 5th, 2008, 23:57	#35
Ignite Maha Guru Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The City of Angels Posts: 504	I think all of your arguments scared the OP away. __________________ You can either be a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

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May 5th, 2008, 23:44	#32
traveller.1 Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Arizona Posts: 49	Guys, I said to myself that I am not going to get into this debate. But guess what I'm jumping right in "where angels fear to tread". The arguments put forth by Mazha are I supect personal feelings. My guess would be that he is one of those PHds that has chosen the placidity of a govt research job for little money, less responsibility, and a lot of job security. That is fine if he doesn't resent it. You cant make the money that entrepreneurs, risk takers and pioneers make. You choose placid sereniy over dynamic evolution. 30 grand/year is less than 15 bucks an hour. In the US receptionists in offices get that. They have high school diplomas and not much more. That is about USD2400/month. London girl by contrast is being paid about USD1200/month and that does not include as machanda says the expat margin. Why is this debate justifying poverty. All I am saying is that London Girl's company is paying her a wage that only London girl will accept. INR50000is approcimately USD1200/month that is 4 weeks of 48 hours each in India = 192 hours of work. That equals 6.25 per hour before taxes. In the west that is nothing, actually less than minimum wage. Dont you get it? Federal asistance is more than that. If as a PHd you have chosen 30 grand a year as your worth, because you like the life style, it is still 250% of what london girl is going to make. The argument that, that is the wage prevalent in India is meaningless. Indians go to the west because there is more money. No one goes for the same wage as in India. If you could get 30000 in Calcutta, and you were a Bengali from Calcutta, would you go to Bombay for 25000, because it would be an adventure. That is what London girl is being asked to do. And again may be Mazha you too are being shafted by your company if they are giving you 30 grand. They need to do better and quit exploiting you. To do well in life you need 2 things brains and balls. You obviously have the brains. So shape your destiny.

May 6th, 2008, 00:11	#37
traveller.1 Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Arizona Posts: 49	Machadinha, I think you are right. It was uncalled for. I am however so convinced that London Girl is being wronged and not getting a fair shake that I really really believe that her employers need to do a lot better. Having said that, I do concede that the Rat race is not necessarily the only way of life.

May 6th, 2008, 00:19	#38
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 25,825	Indeed... It is about choices, and combinations, and I don't see any arguments here, really, just different points of view, along, of course, with different personal priorities and choices. My priority in life was never work. Having said that, I was not bad at what I did, and when required I took the responsibility I was paid to take and worked very hard. However, I much preferred the comfortable-niche job that I had where that was intermittent, to potentially multiplying my salary by using the same skills in a London banking/trading systems environment where I would have been expected to die on the job before going home. You could say that I joined the rat race but stayed in the slow lane! But the cosy secure-for-life jobs, whether public or private, really are no more in UK. I lost mine!

May 6th, 2008, 14:23	#41
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 25,825	If they are posted there by their own companies in india, of course they have to be paid enough to live there. I doubt that many of them get the ex-pat 'packages' including house and education and stuff, though, unless maybe they are already part of that elite here that command salaries equivalent to European/USA; the modern-day maharajas!

May 6th, 2008, 15:29	#42
londongirl9 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: London Posts: 14	Hello All, Wow - I seemed to have caused quite a debate. I can now clear a few things up... I am not being posted abroad, I am taking a job with an Indian company which is totally different to the type of work I do in London (I am an Estate Agent in London and am going to work for a Travel company in Bangalore) So the Salary I am taking (And yes I have accepted the position) is a Local salary and not an Ex-Pat salary. I am youngish (29) single with no commitments back home. The rent on my flat will cover my UK outgoings. So what I earn in India is for me to spend in India as I please. I understand I can rent a one bedroom apartment for about a fifth of my monthly salary and at present in London I pay about a quarter in rent so, I am thinking I should be ok. I also have a bit of savings that I can dip into for trips etc. After lots of deliberating, I see this as an opportunity to experience a totally new life and have an adventure before I decide to marry, settle down etc. Does Traveller.1 still think I am doing the wrong thing..? You guys are making me worried!!

May 6th, 2008, 15:40	#43
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 25,825	Glad to see you posting here again. Yes, we've had quite a debate about various issues --- that's life on this site . You've cleared up the main issue, though, which is that you are not being sent to India by a British or International company, so I think we're all agreed that there is no reason you should be paid more than a local, and the pay you mentioned seems pretty good in local terms. They must want you a lot! Have you got your employment visa sorted out? Hope that goes without any problems for you. Best of luck in your new venture: when you are coming to India?

May 6th, 2008, 15:45	#44
londongirl9 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: London Posts: 14	I'm just trying to sort my Visa now, so fingers crossed it will all be ok! I should be in India on 2nd August, so plenty of time to sort it out, and also enjoy some of this British Summer we are all suddenly enjoying I just hope I’ll be able to live comfortably enough in Bangalore without living on the breadline..! If I’m honest this is my main concern as well as missing friends, family etc. The things we do for an adventure! One thing I do realise that expat clubs tend to meet in the more expensive hotels etc. And if I choose to follow this route, I'll be looking at spending a lot I suppose. I'll just have to flutter those eyelashes!!

May 6th, 2008, 16:07	#45
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 25,825	You will be very, very far from the breadline! In fact I'll be expecting lunch if you travel to Chennai! In fact, a quick glance back over the thread, and it looks as if you'll be buying lunches in Bangalore itself, as well as Chennai, Mumbai and Hyderabad

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