Is it necessary to change one's name while converting into Hindu?

#16 Oct 20th, 2011, 00:08
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#16
Be warned!

You cannot convert to hinduism. There is no legal way to convert to hinduism. At the most, you can only submit an "undertaking" claiming that you have converted to hinduism. But this will only be treated as a declaration. The courts do not recognize an "undertaking". The undertaking does not mean anything.

You will need to register the marriage under "special marriage act". The religious(hindu) wedding is just meant for the society or the community.

Regarding the name change...

There is no concept called "conversion" in hinduism. Arya samaj is just another organization with its own rules and rituals. AS's recognition does not mean you have legal recognition. However, arya samaj people have good influence in marriage bureaucracy and paper work. They can register a marriage very quickly. That is why eloped couples around the country end up having a wedding in arya samaj. I'm assuming more than half of AS's customers are eloped couples.
Last edited by JuliaF; Oct 20th, 2011 at 21:29.. Reason: merged posts
#17 Oct 20th, 2011, 00:38
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#17
You are, apparently, wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hindu Marriage Act This Act applies to...

c) any person who is a convert or reconvert to the Hindu, Buddhist, Jaina or Sikh religion.
You are, apparently, wrong.
Quote:
Arya samaj is just another organization ...
Maybe. Like all the other disparate just-another-organisations that might be said to be a part of Hindu religion?
#18 Oct 20th, 2011, 02:26
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#18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerials View Post I'm assuming more than half of AS's customers are eloped couples.
And where is the data to back this up ? Or are you speculating based on the "Earth is flat" theory ? Arya Samaj does not have customers, there is no-retailing going on
#19 Oct 20th, 2011, 14:38
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#19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick-H View Post You are, apparently, wrong.

any person who is a convert or reconvert to the Hindu, Buddhist, Jaina or Sikh religion.
I know who it applies to who it doesn't. What I said was that a person cannot convert to hinduism. There are no legal ways to convert. All you can do is give an "undertaking" declaring that you have "converted to hinduism". While that may be enough to register the marriage under "hindu marriage act" but if at a later date, the marriage hits disaster, one the couples can claim that the significant other had never converted to hindusim sincerely. There have been many cases where the courts have said that the marriage was never valid in the first place so no divorce was necessary(cause it was never legal). In fact, I see an article on the right side of this page which substantiates my argument. Here it is: Hindu-Christian marriage invalid under Hindu Act: Indian Supreme Court

What I'm trying to prove is that there is no legal process to convert to hinduism. You can never be sure about the future because the courts can interpret it many ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick-H View Post Maybe. Like all the other disparate just-another-organisations that might be said to be a part of Hindu religion?
Marriage is an agreement.

With so many different marriage laws and divorce laws, things are very complicated and have been left vague intentionally to handle contingent situations.

For inter-religious couples, things will go smooth as long as they are amicable. But once it turns sour, you're in deep sh!t. Will arya samaj come to your rescue then? I don't think so.

Like I said, Arya samaj is just another organization. Do not confuse religious organizations with legal organizations. In times of distress, you will have to approach and negotiate with the later, not the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycank View Post And where is the data to back this up ? Or are you speculating based on the "Earth is flat" theory ? Arya Samaj does not have customers, there is no-retailing going on
Arya samaj provides a "service".
Last edited by JuliaF; Oct 20th, 2011 at 21:32.. Reason: merged posts
#20 Oct 20th, 2011, 15:09
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#20
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Originally Posted by Aerials View Post In fact, I see an article on the right side of this page which substantiates my argument. Here it is: Hindu-Christian marriage invalid under Hindu Act: Indian Supreme Court

What I'm trying to prove is that there is no legal process to convert to hinduism. You can never be sure about the future because the courts can interpret it many ways.
The link, and the case does not substantiate your argument. The SCI decision was very specific, the party in question had married under false premise.
#21 Oct 20th, 2011, 15:39
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#21
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Originally Posted by nycank View Post The link, and the case does not substantiate your argument. The SCI decision was very specific, the party in question had married under false premise.
There is no question of "false premise". There is no way anyone can tell if X has sincerely converted. That is the sole reason why there is no legal procedure to convert to hinduism.

I present you another court case: from here
It is about a hindu man who married a hindu women according to HMA. He later found out that she was a muslim who had two kids. He argues with the court that the marriage was never valid in the first place.

She argues like this:
Quote:
In her lengthy statement, she explained all the details including the fact that how she converted to Islam to marry a muslim and after divorce, by performing Shudhikaran ceremonies, she became a full fledged Hindu and there is no bar in marrying Hindu as per Hindu rites and ceremonies.
Quote:
In her evidence, she explained in detail that her marriage with Wasif Khalil was a love marriage wherein her parents had also consented. She further deposed that she converted to Muslim religion only at the time of marriage with Wasif Khalil which was solemnized in Mayur Vihar, Delhi in a Masjid. At the time of marriage, parents of both the parties to marriage were present. She also explained that at the time when she had obtained divorce from Wasif by his saying Talaq three times in March, 1995, her younger brother was present. She also admitted that she was not having any documentary evidence for the same. She further explained that after divorce with her Muslim husband, she had changed her name from Sahar Wasif to Bhavana which was her original name. Immediately after the said divorce, according to her, she had stated using her original name Bhavana and she had undergone Shudhikaran ceremonies for conversion to Hinduism just after her divorce from her previous muslim husband.
Quote:
In support of the stand taken by Respondent-wife as RW1, one K.V. Krishnayya, aged about 60 years, resident of Ram Nagar, Market Lane, Hyderabad was examined as RW2 by way of an affidavit. He explained that the respondent-Bhavana came to his house in the company of his daughter K. Aparna in the month of April 1997. On one occasion, he explained that both Rajiv Gakhar and Bhavana came to his house and on making enquiries Bhavana disclosed that she is a born Hindu but she married to a Muslim and now she is a divorcee as she was divorced by her Muslim husband by saying Talaq three times in March, 1995 and since then she again returned to her previous religion (Hindu) after obtaining the Shudhikaran ceremonies by calling a Pandit and by chanting Mantras. She also disclosed that she is having two children from her Muslim husband. RW2 also enquired and verified the details about the appellant-Rajiv Gakhar. In other words, according to RW2, the appellant was also aware of all the details about RW1 including her religion even before their marriage.
Quote:
One Babu Lal, aged about 65 years, an Astrologer/Karamkandi, resident of Sector 8, Faridabad was examined as RW4. He explained the details about the Shudhikaran ceremonies that were performed to the respondent. According to him, it was done about 7 years ago. He explained that Shudhikaran ceremonies were performed by him on the eve of Puranmasi preceding Holi. After recollection he mentioned that it was around March, 1997. He asserted that after performance of ceremonies, she is deemed to have become a Hindu. He also denied the suggestion that pursuant to marriage of Bhavana who was earlier a Hindu with a Muslim and having two children, she could not have returned to a Hindu fold. He also asserted that Shudhikaran of Bhavana and her two children were carried out simultaneously on the same date and time and her parents were also present on this occasion.
Quote:
Another important witness examined on the side of the respondent is her brother Vibhu Ranjan as RW6. He explained that Bhavna Gakhar is his real elder sister and they are Brahmins/Hindu by religion and the birth name of his sister was Bhavana Sharma. He also explained that his sister first married with a Muslim boy and subsequently after Talaq, thereby her marriage with Muslim came to an end permanently forever. He also elaborated and explained that in the month of March, 1997 on the eve of Holi festival the Shudhikaran ceremonies were performed in their house through Pandit Babu Lal (RW4). He further explained that Abhishek by gangajal was done apart from chanting of Mantras necessary for Shudhikaran. Thus, according to him, Bhavana returned to her original religion, i.e, Hindu and became eligible to enter into marriage with any Hindu male.
Notice the recurring argument about shudhikaran which she uses to claim for being a hindu.
Quote:
The analysis of the assertion of the respondent as RW1 and the evidence of RW2, RW4 and RW6 clearly show that the respondent-wife established that before the marriage with the appellant she became a full-fledged Hindu by performing Shudhikaran ceremonies in the manner and being followed by Hindu custom and all these material facts were known to the appellant at the time of the marriage. In view of these factual details, the decisions relied on by the learned counsel for the appellant are not applicable to the case on hand.
Quote:
Mr. Parikh heavily relied on Gullipilli Sowria Raj (supra). The question in that decision was whether a marriage entered into by a Hindu with a Christian is valid under the provisions of the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955. After finding that the appellant-husband therein was a Roman Catholic Christian, the marriage solemnized in accordance with Hindu customs was a nullity and its registration under Section 8 of the Act could not and/or did not validate the same. In view of the said factual scenario, as rightly observed by the High Court, the ratio in Gullipilli (supra) is not applicable to the case on hand.
Quote:
Inasmuch as the respondent-wife established her claim that on the date of marriage with the appellant she was a Hindu and the same is permissible under Section 5 of the Act, we agree with the conclusion arrived at by the High Court and reject the argument of the counsel for the appellant.
Marriage not valid.
#22 Oct 20th, 2011, 16:01
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#22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerials View Post there is no legal procedure to convert to hinduism.
Forgive me, but is there a legal way of converting to any religion?
#23 Oct 20th, 2011, 16:08
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#23
Okay. Forgive me. The above marriage is legal.

Hindu Marriage Act: SC says re-conversion fine

I accept partial defeat.

I still think that there is no legal way to convert. It just depends on the courts interpretation as per the situation. The women in the mentioned case was a born hindu. I cannot say what the verdict would have been if the women was not a born hindu. Just trying to show that this is a vague subject. Not making an outright conclusion in either side.
#24 Oct 20th, 2011, 16:21
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#24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerials View Post There is no question of "false premise". There is no way anyone can tell if X has sincerely converted. That is the sole reason why there is no legal procedure to convert to hinduism.

I present you another court case: from here
It is about a hindu man who married a hindu women according to HMA. He later found out that she was a muslim who had two kids. He argues with the court that the marriage was never valid in the first place.



Marriage not valid.
Wrong conclusion.


14) Inasmuch as the respondent-wife established her claim that on the date of marriage with the appellant she was a Hindu and the same is permissible under Section 5 of the Act, we agree with the conclusion arrived at by the High Court and reject the argument of the counsel for the appellant.

Appellent was the Pilot, who filed for a divorce under 420, which is fraud.
#25 Oct 20th, 2011, 18:26
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#25
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Forgive me, but is there a legal way of converting to any religion?
Oh, well said, narendra!

I'm not sure if Aerials is arguing from a religious/ideological standpoint. Sure, there are many who's core belief is that there is no other way to become a Hindu than by birth. That would be one thing --- and an argument that we could never, ever reach the end of, as dogma cannot be argued with. However, it is recognised that the Hindu Marriage Act can indeed be dangerous, especially where the rights of wives are concerned and I have no argument with his bringing attention to the dangers.

In business, the wording of a contract is irrelevant ... until something goes wrong.

Marriage is a contract. Anybody, of either sex, regardless of romance of deep feelings and romance, should be aware of the terms of the act they choose to marry under. It will only matter when and if things go wrong --- then it will be vital.

A lot of western expectation of marriage, whether the person in religious, christian, or neither, is founded on the basic vows, ie all that sickness and health, till death us do part stuff, which comes from the Christian ceremony. The Hindu marriage act, in some circumstances, offers quite the opposite. Let people be aware!
#26 Oct 20th, 2011, 20:59
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#26
@Narendra saar-ji
If india were a country with one single civil marriage law then it would be different but it is not. This has implications. For eg: this is the what the delhi high court says regarding "undertakings"...
Quote:
A mere theoretical allegiance to the Hindu faith by a person born in another faith does not convert him into a Hindu, nor is a bare declaration that he is a Hindu sufficient to convert him to Hinduism.
I quote that because article 5 of HMA recognizes hindu converts. What I'm confused about is if "undertakings" are not sufficient for a person to convert to hinduism that what is? Why even talk about recognizing hindu converts in HMA? You see, it has been left vague.

@Mr. Nick
Aahhh, You are interested in my religious beliefs, hain-ji? I noticed your usage of the word "dogma"; very interesting. I'm a liberal and have no interest in people and their beliefs as long as their beliefs do not interfere in my way of life.

What do we do with history? It does not change. How did philosophy became a scare wealth to be kept contained within a clan or an ethnic group? It must be because of it's intangible nature. No one can take that. At best, they have it's generalizations.

I hope my innuendos were vivid enough for you.
#27 Oct 20th, 2011, 21:54
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#27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerials View Post @Narendra saar-ji
If india were a country with one single civil marriage law then it would be different but it is not. This has implications. For eg: this is the what the delhi high court says regarding "undertakings"...

I quote that because article 5 of HMA recognizes hindu converts. What I'm confused about is if "undertakings" are not sufficient for a person to convert to hinduism that what is? Why even talk about recognizing hindu converts in HMA? You see, it has been left vague.

@Mr. Nick
Aahhh, You are interested in my religious beliefs, hain-ji? I noticed your usage of the word "dogma"; very interesting. I'm a liberal and have no interest in people and their beliefs as long as their beliefs do not interfere in my way of life.

What do we do with history? It does not change. How did philosophy became a scare wealth to be kept contained within a clan or an ethnic group? It must be because of it's intangible nature. No one can take that. At best, they have it's generalizations.

I hope my innuendos were vivid enough for you.
Again, you are suffering from ADS, the relevant issue before the court was "documentary"

Quote:
"The conversion from one religion to another religion is a very major decision in one's life and for proving such a conversion, it is incumbent upon the appellant to place on record complete facts and documentary material, if any, to satisfy the court that based on such facts and supporting material, the appellant had undergone change of religion."
Your religious beliefs are of interests to no one, diddly-squat nada. You can be of Microsoft Religion 2.1 version 32 for all one care, the focus is on how the court interprets based on an Act. The court is not there to arbitrate who is converted and by whom.

The court would not have recognized a Bollywood style Rozes-Khanna-Sharmila-Thakur ring-the-temple-bell call themselves married in the eyes of a stone idol and boink either - Because if the court did, Imagine how many horny teenagers would be claiming & counter claiming legal relief
#28 Oct 20th, 2011, 23:19
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#28
I do not know what ADS is.

Documenting your religious journey? Document yourself praying in a temple? Document eating prasad? Doing yoga? Doing head wobble? Hain-ji? Nonsense!!

Quote:
The court is not there to arbitrate who is converted and by whom.
That's the problem. It has to set a process. With multiple marriage laws and religion based reservations, this is very much needed. It cannot reach an arbitrary verdict in each case.

Quote:
The court would not have recognized a Bollywood style Rozes-Khanna-Sharmila-Thakur ring-the-temple-bell call themselves married in the eyes of a stone idol and boink either - Because if the court did, Imagine how many horny teenagers would be claiming & counter claiming legal relief
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not sure if you agree with the indian jurisdiction or not. Can you please speak in simple civil language so that non-english speakers like me can understand what you're trying to say.
#29 Oct 20th, 2011, 23:55
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#29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerials View Post I do not know what ADS is.
ADS = Attention Deficit Syndrome
#30 Oct 20th, 2011, 23:59
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#30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerials View Post Aahhh, You are interested in my religious beliefs, hain-ji? I noticed your usage of the word "dogma"; very interesting. I'm a liberal and have no interest in people and their beliefs as long as their beliefs do not interfere in my way of life.
I find that I get less and less interested in others people's religious beliefs as I get older, although I am still a long way from accepting all of them, even when they don't affect my way of life. Just... I wasn't sure where you were (as they say) coming from on this one. Right or wrong and all the shades in between can be argued, but, as I said before, I accept that you raise valid concerns.

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