"Motorbike Trip to Little Tibet"

sirensongs

An opinionated article with lots of historical background. You have to admire someone who travels this way with their young children. The picture she paints of Indian tourism isn't pretty.

from Phayul.com:
A Motorbike Trip to Little Tibet
Krista, Desmond (age 8) and I have just returned from a motorbike trip up, up and up from the plains of India to the back of beyond, right up to the Roof of the World. "Little Tibet," aka Ladakh, is a wonderous desert moonscape of a land, set amidst the Earth's most spectacular mountain ranges, where an ancient culture strives to preserve its timeless way of life....

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Sama

love the website....

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Yogesh Sarkar

Full of crap is all I can say about this writeup! If the writer has so many problems with India and the roads India has built in Indian Territory, then why are they riding an Indian motorcycle on Indian roads?

This writer seems so pathetically caught in past, what Tibet are they talking about? Had India been so kind as to give Tibet Ladakh (which is an integral part of India) they would have lost it China in their pathetic defeat by Chinese.

The writer wants to talk about India’s “pathetic loss” to China, while Tibetans not only lost their “kingdom” but many also got kicked out from there. If it wasn’t for India’s kindness they would have been either shot at the border or been captured by Chinese and thrown in jail.

I don’t have any thing against Tibetans, but when a person who has no country and is living in my country on our charity talks shit like this, then I can only say is kick them back to China and let Chinese deal with these pathetic souls.

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hitanshu

My principle is simple. I might not agree with what you're saying, but I will defend to my last, your right to say it

With that in mind, I must congratulate the original writer for some tight n thorough research. I agree on some of the data, but his interpretation is well ....!! And as for him berating India, I do agree on the uselessness of Siachen, in terms of the sheer number of lives lost and money wasted. However, every country has a diverse set of peoples. Geopolitics of the past does not mean that we treat Ladakhis as non Indians. That Ladakhis are Indians is the fact, and will remain. If this gent had his way, we would be back to the city civilizations of medieval times - everyone free from the great games!!!

As for getting angry, that would be what the writer wants, to provoke - what more insult for an author than to ignore him. Completely. Let us consign this piece of crap to the dustbin of history and explore Ladakh instead!

sirensongs

First of all, I believe the writer is *female.*

Second, I would say that while perhaps in an ideal world Ladakh and Tibet would both be independent, or Ladakh might be part of an independent Tibet, in reality it's like Kashmir - pretty much a choice between being eaten up by either Pakistan, China, or India. I think the Ladakhi people are overall better off culturally and otherwise being part of India.

However, I agree with her assessment of Indian tourism and its effects. "If she doesn't like it, what is she doing there" is a backward question - unless she went there to SEE it with her own eyes, how could she have a valid opinion?

At least this person did a first-hand independent assessment. Read "Journey to Ladakh"by Andrew Harvey and "Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh" for more independent assessments of 'modernization' and it effects on the area.

Third: the writer is not Tibetan nor does her opinion necessarily reflect that of Tibetans. That should go without saying, but obviously it did not in this case. Quoting Yogesh Sarkar:(but when a person who has no country and is living in my country on our charity talks shit like this, then I can only say is kick them back to China ....)

I was trying to figure out what bothered me so much about the above statement, when I realized: it sounds so AMERICAN.

And, finally: Tibetans are not and never have been living entirely on Indian "charity"; just ask the many Indians employed at the successful Tibetan businesses in Himachal. In fact Tibetans were forced to do what amounted to endentured labour building Indian highways (the kind that are now destroying Ladakhi culture) shortly after their arrival. They have made fantastic contributions to every area where they were settled.

hitanshu

Siren,

Apologies, i misread the gender maybe.

In an ideal world, there would be no india, no USA, no China, just city states with unique cultures and unique beliefs. Ladakhis, in that respect, are no different from other indian states wanting autonomy/statehood.

Actually, isn't that valid across all of India, and even other cultures, that arent as systematic as the swiss?

Er, haven't been to ladakh yet, but could you name a handful of such businesses? I only know of woollens and agriculture, which aren't as prosperous as the walnut/kesar business of Kashmir valley imo.

And as for Indian highways, I've seen Kinnaur valley side, and heard from dozens of leh bikers - the labor is typically from bihar! From what I've heard, endentured labor would happen should something like a bridge collapse or calamity happen and all available hands are put at work. But endentured labor among Ladakhis IMNSHO that's frankly an injust misconception - this Hindu newspaper link: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/200...dows/main1.htm should clear that for you!!!!

I realise i might be wrong above, and please do correct me wherever appropriate. Unlike the triplog author, I do not take a smug-know-it-all view of the world, which is clearly intent on bashing India. Which is what saddens me about the otherwise tightly written triplog.

aadil

I doubt if there is any untruth in what the author has said in the travel blog and though there seems to be more of politics in the blog rather than travel stories it seems to be what the author has felt and that is what it is so if there is anything that is controversial then it is better to say so on the blog so that the writer can get to know what one wants to say about it. No use bashing her blog out here as she is not here to answer to the questions or objections raised here. A peaceful solution to such problems is never found and the British rulers have always been doing this kind of thing with all the other places that they had a foot in before they left. See what happened in Iraq and Kuwait, India and Pakistan, India and China, etc.

Aadil.

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Yogesh Sarkar

Based on your assessment Kashmir should be free, so should Ladakh, hey what about sikkim? And Arunachal Pradash? Whats next, let’s see Utter Pradesh, Bihar etc. etc.

Btw why are we leaving out other countries?

Let’s partition the whole world based on religion, caste, skin color, language, political views etc.

It is not about being eaten up; if Ladakh is a part of India then it is as essential part of the country as any other state. It is not that Ladakhi people are singled out; they enjoy the same rights as other Indian citizen and in some cases more!

hmm.. So based on your views every one should visit every remote place in the world once to see what impact tourism is having on that place and after complaining that tourism is ruining that place move on to another?

Also I didn’t quite like the way you have said “Indian tourism”, why not say tourism? Or you believe it is Indians who spoil ladakh and foreigners who are visiting an integral part of India are uplifting it?

As for modernization, do you think any thing is stopping people from continuing with their traditions or way of life? They simply have choices now to do what they want with their life in a way you and I do. It is not like Indian government is forcefully putting a bulb in their homes or teaching them other languages and religions. Change is a way of life; preserving ones own culture is one thing, progress in another. If today a culture is suffering due to modernization then it is the failure of that culture it self to adopt.

It is not up to me or you to decided what is good for some one else, they must choose their own path themselves! And there is no wrong choice here; each path has its own positive and negative aspects.

I never said all the that we should kick out all the Tibetans, once again I am saying I have nothing against Tibetans, in fact if the writer of this article is not Tibetan then I apologies to every Tibetan for dragging their names in all this.

What I am saying is; I or for that matter any other patriotic Indian or for that matter a patriotic citizen of another country could never tolerate if a person who is not even a citizen of his/her country is living there and criticizing their country! Despite the fact it was this vary country which provided them the shelter and support when they needed it the most!
As for my view that writer is Tibetan came from the fact it is published on a Tibetan website.

Frankly if the writer is not even Tibetan then he/she should think twice before posting/writing such offensive things about citizens of two countries he/she is not even remotely associated with!

And what is wrong with that? People are the same across the world; a patriotic American would behave in a similar manner as a patriotic Indian or citizen of any other country would.

A country is just like an extended family and when some one tries to interfere in you family matter or tries to insult or harm ones family, I am sure most of the people across the world would react in the same manner!

When every country in the world turned their backs on the plight of Tibetans then it was India who came forward to help them!

As for Tibetans running successful business here, well all I can say is good for them and good for India. Like I said before I don’t have problem with any one, unless they have a problem with my country.

As for Tibetans being forced to build roads, well this is one part I just can not believe. As Hitanshu as already pointed out, most of the road workers ladakh are mostly from Bihar.

And even if Tibetans are employed in building the roads then what’s the big deal?

You mean to say it is okay for an Indian to work as laborers and earn wages, but for Tibetans there should only be desk jobs and businesses?

India is free country and every one is free to choose which profession they want. No job is high or low, any one who works to earn his bread deservers as much respect as every other person, regardless of the type of work.

mk26in

I've read the "article" yesterday and posted a comment against it. Today the article is not showing up. I guess Phayul.com has removed it.

Mk

Yogesh Sarkar

Good for them and good for us

dzibead

Phayul changes it's opening page every day, so the fact that the article isn't showing up there currently doesn't mean they removed it just because someone posted a comment criticizing it. It's probably still on the site somewhere in the "back articles."

God knows, they post enough articles on that site that generate enormous controversy and extremely heated discussion, so a few sqeaks from IndiaMike'ers aren't likely to faze them at all.

mk26in

dzibead, i never said they (phayul) got scared of my (someone as u called) comments and removed it. I said i could not find the article anywhere in there.

Can u find it for me ?

sirensongs

I or for that matter any other patriotic Indian or for that matter a patriotic citizen of another country could never tolerate if a person who is not even a citizen of his/her country is living there and criticizing their country!

This says a great deal more than you seem to realize. A modern democracy cannot tolerate criticism and free speech?

I don't believe one is required to be a citizen of any particular country in order to criticize it safely and without fear of reprisal.

At least, not in a democracy.

Is that what they teach you in the schools here - that India "came forward" to help? They never came forward - Nehru flatly refused to do so; the Tibetans showed up on their doorstep with nowhere else to go. Not only did India not "come forward" to help Tibet, Nehru signed a treaty called the Panchseel Agreement recognizing China's right to rule Tibet and agreeing never to interfere.

sirensongs

Oh, *you're* the guy who said to the writer, "If you are a female you can be excused for your lack of knowledge." They probably removed that for its objectionable, sexist content.

Yogesh Sarkar

Being democratic does not means that every one has a right to hurt every one else’s sentiments! Even the freedom of right is govern by the fact it should not infringe or hurt any one else!

Oh yes you do not need to be a citizen of a country to criticize them, but one should look at their selves their own act before criticizing some one else!

As for our help to Tibetan refugees, if India wanted we could have easily turned them away or worse handed them over to Chinese. But we didn’t, instead we welcomed them to our country and gave them to opportunity and rights to start their lives again.

Who do you think allowed Dalai Lama to settle here?

It was the Indian government, even though it carried political and strategic repercussions.

As for you, the moment ban from your ID was lifted I knew it will be only time before you start your anti India and anti Indian rhetoric.