anyone expert on pashmina shawls?

romagna67 · Mar 29th, 2007, 01:01

Hy there. I'm planning a trip to Kashmir and i'd really would like to buy 3/4 pieces of these beatifull pashmina Shawls the kashmiri people make. Is there anyone who already knows someone i can trust, to buy from (for best quality ones)? I'll also like to know how much should i expect to pay? Thanks very much, hope to hear from you soon, Max

Nick-H · Mar 29th, 2007, 01:41

My favourite Kashmiri shawls are the ones with hand-emboidered flowers all over a plain background --- but these are wool, although still quite pricey.

As I understand it, and I also understand that some controversy is there, the making of the 'real' pashmina requires wool taken from a wild goat which is killed so that the wool can be taken.

Because the goat has become an endangered species the practice has been outlawed, and the selling of the resultant shawls made illegal.

Kashmiri traders (here in India) have told me that they do not kill the animal, and nothing is endangered by the trade. And, if pushed a little, they will produce that special box from under the counter and start showing you the real pashmina.

unlike the beautifully-embroidered woollen work I've seen, these pieces have been quite plain. But the beauty is in the texture and the feel. Imagine the difference between a cheap itchy-scratchy wool scarf and cashmere. Now imagine something a thousand times finer and lighter...

What is sold in the UK as 'pashmina' is various wool/silk/synthetic blends. In fact I once emailed the BBC program Watchdog about the confusing and misleading way in which the word was used --- I think it even got a mention on the air!

But back to the 'real thing' --- the cost is frightening. These things are dowry items that become family heirlooms. Makes silk look cheap.

This is a very interesting subject, and I hope someone knows more than I do and we can learn about the situation with the animal and the law.

I'd start with google now, but I have to go to bed.

crvlvr · Mar 29th, 2007, 01:47

I think the OP asks a very good questoins. My friends and I purchased a number of "pashmina" shawls in Jaipur. But, at Rs500 each, we did not expect them to be genuine. Traders call almost anything pashmina these days. But, here is one link about the genuine article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashmina and a link to an oinline store that claims to sell you the real deal http://www.thepashminastore.com/

PeakXV · Mar 29th, 2007, 08:05

The origins & history of the Kashmir shawl are fascinating and there have been many books dedicated to this weaving/embroidery art. The term "Pashmina" has come to stand for many different qualities of woven wool and/or blends over the years. This generalization of the term can be heavily blamed on the destabilization of Kashmir and surrounding areas over the years which has caused the sources used in the manufacture of these shawls to change in terms of animal hair source, altitude habitate of said animal source - and thus quality.

High Indian Government import duties on dehaired cashmere from China & Mongolia have in recent times caused increased illicit use of shatoosh (Kings wool - hair of the endangered Chiru - Tibetan antelope) in the high-end shawl weavings in Kashmir.

....So best to do a little research before venturing into this varying industry. But at the end of the day - if the price is right and it just screams "buy me" - then go for it!

Tapestry · Mar 29th, 2007, 09:50

Quote:

Because the goat has become an endangered species the practice has been outlawed, and the selling of the resultant shawls made illegal.

I think this might be Shatoosh, as PeakXV mentions. Shatoosh is definitely illegal and would only be offered to you in hushed tones after the seller feels comfortable with you. I was actually offered Shatoosh at Dilli Haat from a pashmina shawl seller from whom I was buying a bunch of beautiful shawls. I responded definitively with, "Shatoosh is illegal. I am not interested."

Otherwise, a nice quality, hand embroidered pashmina (which may be a pashmina/wool blend) should run between about Rs.1600 and Rs.3200. Somewhere in there, depending on the intracacy of the embroidery and the quality of the material. I usually pay around Rs. 2200, give or take a few hundred rupees. Also note the size difference between stoles and shawls; stoles would be cheaper because they are about half the width.

I've actually found that some of the best pashminas can be found at Dilli Haat here in Delhi, at very reasonable prices.

Good luck.

Nick-H · Mar 29th, 2007, 11:52

Ahhh... Shatoosh --- that's the one I was thinking of.

So you can ignore most of what I was saying (nothing new there, then

) unless you are tempted by this incredibly fine, absurdly expensive fabric --- and prepared to break the law and support killing the animal.

kidsan · Mar 29th, 2007, 13:45

my understanding is that 'real' pashmina wool comes only from the throat/chest of a particular type of goat that lives at high altitude (7000mt+ ?) and is subsequently very expensive...at least 5000rs, if not double this.

That is not to say that there are some very fine wool shawls selling for a much lower price though they are not 'technically' pashmina.

kolobar · Mar 29th, 2007, 15:03

The real pashmina (i.e. cashmere wool) comes is produced of wool made of winter coat of pashmina goat (Capra hircus) - small and hairy goat breed by nomads of tibetan high plateau on altitudes 4000+m in Western Tibet and its geographical extension Rupshu plateau in Ladakh. Due to harsh winter conditions pashmina goat has very delicate winter hair - a single hair is 5 times thiner than a human hair and hollow in the middle. That is why pashmina shawls are so wram and fine touch. In spring, nomads comb winter hair from the animals and sell it through elaborate chain of merchants which ends in pashmina factories in Kashmir. Lately pashmina goats are also breed on farms on lower altitudes.
Shahtus is another matter. It is the hair of wild and highly endangerded tibetan anelope or chirru in tibetan. It is considered even better quality than pashmina but tragic fact is that chirrus would not let collectors to comb them therefore they are killed. It is of course illegal and to cut the business on consumers end it is also illegal to sell or purchase shatus all over India and the world - except in Jammu&Kashmir where traders managed to keep production and selling of shahtus tolerated. But as soon as you bring your 1000USD worth shawl out of J&K you risk being arrested.
If you go to Kashmir visit a village Kanihama - the only place where original way of making kashmir shalws is maintained. (Also the only place where you will not be excpected to buy a shawl). Mister Kanihama junior runs a factory there where pattern is made during weaving - this is true jamawar shawl ( a time wasting and expensive techique which produce over thousand dollar pieces. The technique was abandoned all over Kashmir because customers cannot afford to buy such expensive shawls so shawls are made plain and later pattern is made with silk thread.
It sound strange but pashmina shawl is not a good buy in Kashmir even if you go to the factory. Kashmiris are great in separating business from friendship (with tourists) and they will never spoil another Kashmiri business by trying to reduce price or reveal a tricky offer. And they will always collect their commision. Kashmir is interesting to get insight into production of shawls but for buying it might even be better to go shopping to places with a lot of shops&competition (like Leh) where you can shop around for some time to get a good insight, then bargain a price considerably by using aggressive "take it or leave it" approach. My impression is that even if you manage to reduce a price 50% (and Kashmiri merchant will give you a very persuasive impression how insulted he is) he will still profit.
You should also know that buying pashmina is a tricky thing. There are many different qualities therefore different prices - depending of which quality of pashmina is used, of mixing pashmina with silk, wool..., hand made or machine made, size of the shawl... So if you are not professional - find a piece you like, bargaing mercilessly and buy it.

Nick-H · Mar 29th, 2007, 15:45

Thanks for that excellent post

There is a Kashmiri shop guy I used to sometimes sit and chat with (haven't seen him for a while). He told me that good hand-done work is becoming impossible to get. As with many crafts, there is simply not enough money in it for youngsters to want to follow the family trade.

AvidTrekker · Mar 29th, 2007, 16:11

Kolobar, that was really really knowledgable...

Thanks for the detailed information.

Puts things in a different perspective, isn't it?

Tapestry · Mar 29th, 2007, 16:12

That was a very informative post, Kolobar. I think the take home message for romagna67 is just to look for a shawl you really like and try to get a price you're satisfied with. I think if you're paying over Rs.3,000 for a hand embroidered shawl it should be pretty special. I've bought enough of these shawls that now when the Kashmiri sellers try to lure me into their stalls I can say, "I have enough, I'm like a store. I could sell you some." But I definitely don't sit up at night wondering about what percentage of pashmina the actually contain.

romagna67 · Mar 29th, 2007, 22:06

Well, i admit all your answer really help me in choosing what to go for! Thanks a lot guys...

Nick-H · Mar 29th, 2007, 22:40

Interesting subject, and it makes a change from silk.

Not that I mind discussing silk, of course....

.

kmalik · Mar 29th, 2007, 23:21

I hope I am not taking this too far off topic, but this Pashmina discussion brings to mind a somewhat similar material (and definitely the price), namely Qiviut. Qiviut, this strange word pronounced ki - vee - ute, means down or underwool in the Eskimo language. In English it means specifically the soft greyish-brown underwool of the rare Arctic animals, the musk ox. The animals shed during the spring and by combing and gently pulling the fiber that hangs like great powder puffs of the "golden fleece of the Arctic." An adult animal sheds between four and six pounds a year, which when packed down will fill a kitchen size garbage bag. The hand combed qiviut from the farm is cleaner and softer than the underwool shed in the wild since the loose fiber is not subjected to the harshness of wind and weather, but stored and protected.

It's very soft, rare, extremely warm and yes awfully expensive! Just thought it shares some traits with pashmina.

PeakXV · Mar 29th, 2007, 23:41

The weaving art museum has a nice exhibit/history of the shawls:

http://www.weavingartmuseum.org/shawls/

Mar 29th, 2007, 01:01	#1
romagna67 Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: italy Posts: 41	anyone expert on pashmina shawls? Hy there. I'm planning a trip to Kashmir and i'd really would like to buy 3/4 pieces of these beatifull pashmina Shawls the kashmiri people make. Is there anyone who already knows someone i can trust, to buy from (for best quality ones)? I'll also like to know how much should i expect to pay? Thanks very much, hope to hear from you soon, Max

Mar 29th, 2007, 01:41	#2
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,875	My favourite Kashmiri shawls are the ones with hand-emboidered flowers all over a plain background --- but these are wool, although still quite pricey. As I understand it, and I also understand that some controversy is there, the making of the 'real' pashmina requires wool taken from a wild goat which is killed so that the wool can be taken. Because the goat has become an endangered species the practice has been outlawed, and the selling of the resultant shawls made illegal. Kashmiri traders (here in India) have told me that they do not kill the animal, and nothing is endangered by the trade. And, if pushed a little, they will produce that special box from under the counter and start showing you the real pashmina. unlike the beautifully-embroidered woollen work I've seen, these pieces have been quite plain. But the beauty is in the texture and the feel. Imagine the difference between a cheap itchy-scratchy wool scarf and cashmere. Now imagine something a thousand times finer and lighter... What is sold in the UK as 'pashmina' is various wool/silk/synthetic blends. In fact I once emailed the BBC program Watchdog about the confusing and misleading way in which the word was used --- I think it even got a mention on the air! But back to the 'real thing' --- the cost is frightening. These things are dowry items that become family heirlooms. Makes silk look cheap. This is a very interesting subject, and I hope someone knows more than I do and we can learn about the situation with the animal and the law. I'd start with google now, but I have to go to bed. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Mar 29th, 2007, 08:05	#4
PeakXV Naan.tering Nabob Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Abode of Glooscap Posts: 4,196	The origins & history of the Kashmir shawl are fascinating and there have been many books dedicated to this weaving/embroidery art. The term "Pashmina" has come to stand for many different qualities of woven wool and/or blends over the years. This generalization of the term can be heavily blamed on the destabilization of Kashmir and surrounding areas over the years which has caused the sources used in the manufacture of these shawls to change in terms of animal hair source, altitude habitate of said animal source - and thus quality. High Indian Government import duties on dehaired cashmere from China & Mongolia have in recent times caused increased illicit use of shatoosh (Kings wool - hair of the endangered Chiru - Tibetan antelope) in the high-end shawl weavings in Kashmir. ....So best to do a little research before venturing into this varying industry. But at the end of the day - if the price is right and it just screams "buy me" - then go for it! __________________ We shall not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started ...and know the place for the first time. T.S. Eliot Don't go to India ~ Pre-trip Warnings & Misconceptions?

Mar 29th, 2007, 16:11	#10
AvidTrekker Veda Chanting & Mantra Yoga teacher Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: body in Mumbai, head in Himalaya Posts: 2,784	Very good info Kolobar, that was really really knowledgable... Thanks for the detailed information. Puts things in a different perspective, isn't it? __________________ The Universe is an ellipsoid?... or a Spheroid?? If the sphere smiles... it becomes an ellipse. This IS Creation.

Mar 29th, 2007, 22:06	#12
romagna67 Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: italy Posts: 41	i could not expect better infos.... Well, i admit all your answer really help me in choosing what to go for! Thanks a lot guys...

Mar 29th, 2007, 01:47	#3
crvlvr Guru Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hollywood Posts: 4,474	I think the OP asks a very good questoins. My friends and I purchased a number of "pashmina" shawls in Jaipur. But, at Rs500 each, we did not expect them to be genuine. Traders call almost anything pashmina these days. But, here is one link about the genuine article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashmina and a link to an oinline store that claims to sell you the real deal http://www.thepashminastore.com/

Mar 29th, 2007, 11:52	#6
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,875	Ahhh... Shatoosh --- that's the one I was thinking of. So you can ignore most of what I was saying (nothing new there, then ) unless you are tempted by this incredibly fine, absurdly expensive fabric --- and prepared to break the law and support killing the animal.

Mar 29th, 2007, 13:45	#7
kidsan Maha Guru Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: heading for Mauritania... Posts: 689	my understanding is that 'real' pashmina wool comes only from the throat/chest of a particular type of goat that lives at high altitude (7000mt+ ?) and is subsequently very expensive...at least 5000rs, if not double this. That is not to say that there are some very fine wool shawls selling for a much lower price though they are not 'technically' pashmina.

Mar 29th, 2007, 15:03	#8
kolobar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: beside a lake Posts: 155	The real pashmina (i.e. cashmere wool) comes is produced of wool made of winter coat of pashmina goat (Capra hircus) - small and hairy goat breed by nomads of tibetan high plateau on altitudes 4000+m in Western Tibet and its geographical extension Rupshu plateau in Ladakh. Due to harsh winter conditions pashmina goat has very delicate winter hair - a single hair is 5 times thiner than a human hair and hollow in the middle. That is why pashmina shawls are so wram and fine touch. In spring, nomads comb winter hair from the animals and sell it through elaborate chain of merchants which ends in pashmina factories in Kashmir. Lately pashmina goats are also breed on farms on lower altitudes. Shahtus is another matter. It is the hair of wild and highly endangerded tibetan anelope or chirru in tibetan. It is considered even better quality than pashmina but tragic fact is that chirrus would not let collectors to comb them therefore they are killed. It is of course illegal and to cut the business on consumers end it is also illegal to sell or purchase shatus all over India and the world - except in Jammu&Kashmir where traders managed to keep production and selling of shahtus tolerated. But as soon as you bring your 1000USD worth shawl out of J&K you risk being arrested. If you go to Kashmir visit a village Kanihama - the only place where original way of making kashmir shalws is maintained. (Also the only place where you will not be excpected to buy a shawl). Mister Kanihama junior runs a factory there where pattern is made during weaving - this is true jamawar shawl ( a time wasting and expensive techique which produce over thousand dollar pieces. The technique was abandoned all over Kashmir because customers cannot afford to buy such expensive shawls so shawls are made plain and later pattern is made with silk thread. It sound strange but pashmina shawl is not a good buy in Kashmir even if you go to the factory. Kashmiris are great in separating business from friendship (with tourists) and they will never spoil another Kashmiri business by trying to reduce price or reveal a tricky offer. And they will always collect their commision. Kashmir is interesting to get insight into production of shawls but for buying it might even be better to go shopping to places with a lot of shops&competition (like Leh) where you can shop around for some time to get a good insight, then bargain a price considerably by using aggressive "take it or leave it" approach. My impression is that even if you manage to reduce a price 50% (and Kashmiri merchant will give you a very persuasive impression how insulted he is) he will still profit. You should also know that buying pashmina is a tricky thing. There are many different qualities therefore different prices - depending of which quality of pashmina is used, of mixing pashmina with silk, wool..., hand made or machine made, size of the shawl... So if you are not professional - find a piece you like, bargaing mercilessly and buy it.

Mar 29th, 2007, 15:45	#9
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,875	Thanks for that excellent post There is a Kashmiri shop guy I used to sometimes sit and chat with (haven't seen him for a while). He told me that good hand-done work is becoming impossible to get. As with many crafts, there is simply not enough money in it for youngsters to want to follow the family trade.

Mar 29th, 2007, 16:12	#11
Tapestry Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 325	That was a very informative post, Kolobar. I think the take home message for romagna67 is just to look for a shawl you really like and try to get a price you're satisfied with. I think if you're paying over Rs.3,000 for a hand embroidered shawl it should be pretty special. I've bought enough of these shawls that now when the Kashmiri sellers try to lure me into their stalls I can say, "I have enough, I'm like a store. I could sell you some." But I definitely don't sit up at night wondering about what percentage of pashmina the actually contain.

Mar 29th, 2007, 22:40	#13
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,875	Interesting subject, and it makes a change from silk. Not that I mind discussing silk, of course.... .

Mar 29th, 2007, 23:21	#14
kmalik Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 455	I hope I am not taking this too far off topic, but this Pashmina discussion brings to mind a somewhat similar material (and definitely the price), namely Qiviut. Qiviut, this strange word pronounced ki - vee - ute, means down or underwool in the Eskimo language. In English it means specifically the soft greyish-brown underwool of the rare Arctic animals, the musk ox. The animals shed during the spring and by combing and gently pulling the fiber that hangs like great powder puffs of the "golden fleece of the Arctic." An adult animal sheds between four and six pounds a year, which when packed down will fill a kitchen size garbage bag. The hand combed qiviut from the farm is cleaner and softer than the underwool shed in the wild since the loose fiber is not subjected to the harshness of wind and weather, but stored and protected. It's very soft, rare, extremely warm and yes awfully expensive! Just thought it shares some traits with pashmina.

Mar 29th, 2007, 23:41	#15
PeakXV Naan.tering Nabob Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Abode of Glooscap Posts: 4,196	The weaving art museum has a nice exhibit/history of the shawls: http://www.weavingartmuseum.org/shawls/

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