student visa from a monastery??

karmachoeying

Hi!!, I don't know if this makes any sence, but is it posible to get a student visa if you get a buddhist monastery to write a letter saying that you're going to be studying there?????, or if any to get a letter from the monastery monastery saying that you're going to be working there (and get an employment visa)? . I'm just looking for a way to stay in india for a couple of years, without having to leave every 6 month, so any insights or suggestions would be highly appreciated.
thanks

machadinha

It's good you post this as a follow-up to your earlier thread: Indian residential permit (trying to move to india) , where it (official studies) were mentioned as one remote possibility. (Or maybe the two threads can be merged by a moderator? Well, they can stand apart as two separate queries just as well I guess.)

There were some links to official sites given to you there; I suggest you study those on stipulations (and always remembering they may not give you the full story, but it should be a start). In case you missed that, they're listed at the beginning of this thread of mine: Some India Travel Links . Also, check your own embassies:

http://www.embindia.org/
http://www.embajadaindia.com/

I can't find one for Lithuania in a jiffy, maybe you can, or it's quite possible there exists none. Maybe contact that country's Foreign Ministry instead; or your Lithuanian embassy in India if there is one, one supposes.

What you need to realize is (the stipulations governing) both work or studies will be highly formalized and regulated, so you'd need to arrange this with your specific monastery of study, if they are eligible for such a scheme at all. It's certainly not a simple matter of you stating your intentions in writing to your embassy. If you'd be eligible to legally work at such a monastery I'm even more doubtful about, but then who knows, maybe if you could provide them with some unique qualities that aren't easily locally available, such as being a sought-after teacher or web wizard or something. Again, you'd need them to provide you with a work contract, then arrange the formalities from home.

That study path could certainly be worth pursuing though, if you're serious about your plans. It will likely be a hassle to arrange, so little point trying if you're not. (Nor could you "make believe" you're studying there when you're not I don't think, so better get ready for an X period of serious Buddhist or any other studies if that's what you want I guess.) Again, your first step should be to establish connections to a specific monastery that will both want to take you and be eligible to take in foreign students.

A final thing: You may be aware of the so-called "visa run"? What many people used to do is go for 6 months (or whatever period your nationality allows you), then leave the country for a short while to a country within the vicinity, apply for a new visa there, and get back in. The thing is all reports indicate India is seriously clamping down on this (and it is, of course and after all, a wilful dodging of their tourist visa stipulations), so this seems to be getting harder all the time, and you may find yourself being refused a new visa and hence locked out of the country. So in fact I would not advocate this method in this day and age, however I thought you should be aware of it.

Well, good luck with it all.

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karmachoeying

Hi!!!, thanks for your quick response!!!, You're awesome, solving everyone questions!!!. I think I'll try with the student visa, although it does seems like a lot of work, and i kind of doubt that my monastery would be eligible to take in foreign students (do you know where i can find a such requirements?), but i'll give it a shot, well i'll try those websites and see if i can find the info i need.
Dhanyavaad =)
th

machadinha

Heheh, I don't think I'm quite that good But hey, one tries, and thanks

I dunno, you imply you are in touch with a specific monastery already. So I think you just need to discuss the situation with them. If they can't take you, maybe they can point you to another place that can.

Study the stipulations regarding the "student visa" on those sites I gave or pointed you to. Those further links I gave (in my "Travel Links") feature the Bureau of Immigration, among others, as well as several relevant ministries.

A few things should be very clear I think:

-- If you're just looking for a way to extend your 6-month stay (without any serious study or work intentions), forget about it. India just has no legal provisions for this, period.

-- Your place of study will not get you the visa. I don't know the precise details, but you'll basically need to get your study with them officially in order, then apply for a student visa at home on that basis. Again, provided they're allowed to take in foreign students at all. Allow for plenty of time for the visa to be processed, one assumes.

(btw In your case a complication might be whatever residency or nationality status you have in your various countries. It is possible you'd need to apply for the visa in your home country. I don't know that, but it's possible. This appears to be the case for employment visa applications; it may differ if one is a legal resident in another country though.)

-- I frankly always get a little nervous with people asking about some generic "Buddhism." Let's say if I were to ask you about studying art, the obvious question would then be what discipline, what school, what is my experience, etc. I mean as far as I know in India Buddhism will usually translate to Tibetan Buddhism, of any number of (sub-) schools with their particular outlooks and traditions, not all of whom get along very well, and I imagine it would matter at what level you are in your particular branch, and one monastery I know of who indicate they take foreign students list among their requirements a fluency in Tibetan for instance, etc. and so forth. However, since you do imply you are in touch with a specific place already, let's consider this a superfluous comment for now.

-- Finally, do realize that conversely if you were to decide to go on a tourist visa and do some studying or working on the side, the tourist visa does not strictly allow for it. I'm sure people do it and so long as it's low-key and you don't shout it from the rooftops it should be fine, however it is illegal. Practically, this could result in you being kicked out and barred from ever entering the country again. It should be noted that any abuse of your visa (using it for a purpose it wasn't designed for) can technically result in this, including the "visa run" I mentioned above, esp. in case of flagrant and repeated abuse of it one assumes. That's just the letter of the law and I'm sure in practice it won't be swiftly enforced if you haven't really gotten way out of hand (and I don't think a spell of following some courses in a monastery should cause you any kind of trouble, I'm sure many people do this), however I think people should be aware of it.

Well, again, best of luck with it. Maybe it's best if you were to see what you can find out with your monastery, then be back here with anything that's unclear to you, and hopefully people will be able to help you further. There are some members here with much more knowledge of Indian immigration law than I for that matter. Again, if you are serious about your plans, I think it's a path every bit worth pursuing. Cheers.

karmachoeying

Hi, thanks again!!. I've been doing some serios about the student visa, although it's definetly harder that what I thought. And I kind of doubt that my monastery would be elligible to take foreing students. But do you know on what such a elligibility depens?, 'cause I've benn looking on line and I haven't found any kind of profile to take foreing students, I sent an email to the goverment of india (http://india.gov.in/overseas/study_india/faq.php) a week ago, asking them if a monastery would fit such requirements but they haven't answer . Any way my monastery is a small one (a 100 monks or so), and they don't offer curses to foreigners, but I know I can go there and learn with the lamas, and do retreat (about doing retreat I don't know if it should be mention to the embassy people, it is a study period, but I don't know if they would see it like that), so I was thinking that maybe I could get the student visa as beeing enroll in the curses that they do for the monks in india (that are studies from 5 to 9 years), but even if I get that, I'm guessing that it would look a bit odd, 'cause is a male monastery and am a girl, so i don't know if that would make visa thing even harder .
So I think I'm gonna wait 'til december, when a lama from the monastery is coming to spain, and ask him all this questions, and in the mean while trying to get some anwsers form the india goverment.
Well if you have any further advise I would really appreciated.
thank u so much
cheers
accha namaste

machadinha

No. I'm very sorry, I am not a Buddhist nor do I have any more direct experience on studying in India.

That government site: If they don't answer your emails, do they list any phone numbers you could contact? This may work better. Be prepared for some confusing conversations, and if someone tells you yes you can/no you can't, that isn't necessarily the end of the story. Welcome to India, shall we say. You could try calling your Indian embassy about it for that matter. Be careful however I guess to not jeopardize any future merely tourist visits of yours, by giving them too much information and in case this whole plan falls through (as in leading them to suspect you're trying to work your way around it if you do apply for a tourist visa some time later).

(btw India.gov.in is more of a portal site I think, you might be better off contacting the appropriate departments directly. Such as their Ministry of Home Affairs of perhaps of Education or so. In fact at bottom of the page you gave they suggest further contacts for further enquiries, have you tried those?)

There are female monks alright (called Bhikkhuni's I believe, although I'm not sure about their name in Tibetan Buddhism. I'm also not sure what a nunnery would be called. I do know they exist.)

If you were to go just for a retreat, I wouldn't mention this with your tourist visa application no. Not because you need to lie or have anything to hide, but it can only unnecessarily complicate things. You will primarily be a visitor to the country, so why not leave it at that. There's no need to set off any alarms about you possibly falling under a far more complicated visa scheme, unless that's what you're specifically going for, and hence need to be covered by. Anyway, maybe your intended place of doing it should also be able to advise on this. Some monasteries in certain areas may require a special permit to visit for instance, so I guess in that case it may have to be mentioned as your reason of stay.

I don't think your personal details (being a woman or whatever) should matter all that much, inasmuch as I imagine you just need to get some official contract to confirm your upcoming studies. If you manage that, I don't imagine the embassy caring much about how you go about it, as long as you strike them as bona fide. It's not up to them to determine whether you qualify as a Buddhist or art or maths student or whatever, and I wouldn't expect them to care as long as again you have your papers in order to attest you have an agreement with an appropriate institute, I'm sure they have better things to do.

I think Nick mentioned on your other thread that to take in foreign students an institute must basically be recognized as an official education institute, I don't know anything more about it beyond that.

To wait for your lama to visit so you can ask him would of course seem to make every bit of sense yes.

Just as an example, this is (affiliated to) one monastery where I've stayed, merely as a visitor mind: http://www.palyul.org/eng_centers_ngagyur.htm, see also notably their http://www.palyul.org/eng_shed07_entrance.htm . I think I've seen on that site in the past they take in foreign students, however I can't find it back for you now in a hurry. They mention they have a separate women's shedra. In any case, browse around there all you can, they give a lot of information, also on the practicalities of being a student and what that life entails. You might try and contact them just to see if they can advise you further on your particular plans. Try also this site for one of the specific monasteries linked to there, and connected to them: http://www.namdroling.org/. That Palyul site also offers a forum, maybe you could find out more there. [Edit: Currently off-line though. Hm, well, there must be others out there on the web.] I mean there must be plenty westerners studying or practicing Tibetan Buddhism there, right. Although you may have to be prepared to find out that to do so at home, then occasionally visit India or some other countries, is simply the more practical.

On a completely different and secular note, this is a famous university in West Bengal, founded by Rabindranath Tagore: http://www.visva-bharati.ac.in/Gener...gnStudents.htm . Their information provided here is decidedly meagre, however you could again just drop them a note to ask if they can advise you on how to get this together.

machadinha

ps

They notably link on to this site (as well as listing their phone nrs. and other contact info), which should have a lot of answers for you I think: http://www.educationindia4u.nic.in/. Do check their http://www.educationindia4u.nic.in/forign.asp and http://www.educationindia4u.nic.in/admissionrules.asp . And, of course, they're not focused on religious studies, that's for you to find out

machadinha

pps I had been thinking in the meantime and in all of this, if you are affiliated to a monastery in India, why even look for other resources, they should be the first and hopefully be able to advise you. Can't you email or phone them or that lama of yours?

You've so far struck me as someone who is genuine about their intentions, or I wouldn't have answered you. However on rereading this:

One has to wonder again if you're not just looking for a way to stay in India for an extended period, under the guise of doing some studies in a mindset you happen to feel an affinity to of whatever degree. Again, the answer has to be: Forget about this, it's not going to legally happen.

While I've never done it, I imagine it's quite simple really: You need to get an arrangement with an institute that is under Indian arrangements entitled to do so to follow their curriculum, then apply for a student visa on that basis. To judge your applicability for those studies would be up to the institute; the embassy (i.e., the Indian government) will just judge if you meet the requirements for the visa. (That the process is said by themselves to take a while can probably safely be assumed to mean they do so thoroughly.)

None of this would be very different in any other country btw.

So basically if your monastery can't take in foreign students, they can't; if they do five-year courses for Indian or Tibetan students but not for foreigners, then you don't fall under that. Period. (I would in your case however ask them if they can point you to another institute that might.) There's no point in discussing this with your embassy, they won't care, and it's not their business. No one can stay in any foreign country merely on the basis of wanting to do so, alas.

I don't know how to sum this up or express myself well, but being eligible for any type of visa is not a matter of you being able to state your case at an embassy, or being a kind person or something. It's simply about meeting the requirements.

So, in an attempt to sum up then:
Your studies you need to arrange with the institute.
Your student visa you then need to arrange with your Indian embassy, and strictly on that basis.
(And if it will be granted or not will, finally, always be up to the embassy aka the government which they are an extension of of course. A visa is always granted as a favor, it isn't a "right" as such.)

machadinha

nb As another umpteenth afterthought, it would depend are you more interested in Buddhism or in India. In any case, the possibility of prolonged stays in Thailand and Sri Lanka for instance as a serious practitioner was discussed here: Long term buddhism practice and study .

You'll be looking largely at the Theravada school of thought here though, quite distinct if not to say contrary to that of Tibetan Buddhism (largely Mahayana, and in a quite distinct form of its own). So if you're a follower of the latter, this may not mean very much to you at all. (Or if you're unsure of what direction to head in, it might only confuse you. Etc.)

Note I asked on that thread about the possibility of staying in India on the basis of being such a practitioner; my answer so far and for now would have to be I think I was mistaken, and there are no provisions for such, for all practical means and purposes.

Haylo

If you you are serious about taking up a monastic life, and not just looking for a backdoor way of staying in India, I reckon you can pretty much forget it if you can only speak English.

The concepts are hard enough to grasp in English...

EDITED TO ADD: Just spotted this and responded to it.
Now I am really confused, are you really expecting to join an all male monastery for five to nine years? It sounds as if you are expecting them to change everything they do just to suit you... Why should they do this?

Or do you want the monastery to lie about you doing this five to nine year course just so you can have a piece of paper that says you can stay in India? Either way, this does not seem an honourable way to behave.

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Nick-H

I hope the bigger ones don't either!

Thanks for that lovely typo karmachoeying

I don't know what people who want to come to India for religious study do.I guess some of the institutions must be 'recognised', but I would expect it to be a difficult status to achieve. If your monastery is Tibetan then the fact that it is a refugee community might (I don't know) complicate things

karmachoeying

Hi thanks for your posts machadinha, I think I should make myself clear, I´m really serious about folloing buddhism studies and practice, maybe I dind´t expresed myself correctly before, but I feel like I´m ready to give up this so called “wordly life” and devote myself completly to practice, and I feel that India would be the rigth place for me to do so. I´m also pretty sure that I found my teacher that´s why I would like to go to that specific monastery, where I was told I could stay (without me even asking, or intending to at the moment, so I´m not intending to disrespect their tradition or behave improperly). If I go to my teachers monastery I wouldn´t be going to classes with the monks, but I would be studing under my theacher guiadance and doing practices, so pretty much doing what the monks do, and of course I would love to do retreat some time in the future. And I´ve been learning tibetan for 5 month now (ok not very long), I mean I have a looong way to go, but I can keep on learning there. So I think I´ll follow your advise, and try with phone calls (thanks a lot for the websites), and wait until next month when I talk to my lama face to face and ask him all of this. I´ll also ask him about Sherab Ling (the monastery that u told me) I also stayed there for a couple of days, it´s such a great monastery and Situ Rinpoche is an amazing teacher, so if going to my monastery results imposible, I think Sherab Ling would be my second choice

machadinha

Yes, excellent, I think I perfectly understand now, so thanks for elucidating. And do kindly keep us posted on how it works out, it will be helpful to many with similar plans.

Good luck again. As they say, where there's a will there's a way, and all that

nb My memories of my visit, brief as it was, are very warm yes. Quite extraordinary really.

Edit, later: I don't think this was Sherab Ling though, am quite sure of it in fact, and it doesn't seem to be anywhere near there. Unless I'm missing something. They're not of the same school even I think (Kagyu vs. Nyingma). Anyway, whatever. Just see what you can find out.

karmachoeying

Hi, I haven´t made any progress yet, I just wanted to say that I loved your quote "where there's a will there's a way", it made my day . And sorry, you were right about the monastery it`s just that the websites(I mean the way u tipe them)are a bit similar and I just asume it was the same (but thanks for the info there´s some good information). Well thanks, I´ll keep on looking and strengthening my will .
have a nice day