Carriage layout diagrams, PLEASE give feedback.

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#16 May 2nd, 2009, 06:38
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  • Hal is offline
#16
Looks good, Steven!

Would a section of the carriage help so you could see the tiers, the headroom in your bunk, and the window location?
#17 May 2nd, 2009, 06:51
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#17
The second one is better
#18 May 2nd, 2009, 07:26
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#18
Thanks everyone for the suggestions.....

I will be doing another reply after this one (maybe after some sleep ) explaining how difficult it is to decide what info to add and what info to leave out, I mean, I could be here for a year if I added all the info that could be added.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Martin View Post Suggestions

* Include photographs as these will add to the ability of people to make sense of the diagrams.
Sorry Martin, I was editing my original post when you were replying, the edit was to mention that 3-4 large photos of each class will be added to give the diagrams some real-life meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Martin View Post * Include typical labels like A1, B1, HA1 S7 etc as I once got very confused when allocated an AC2 bunk in a mixed compartment and couldn't quite believe I had a bunk. The labels could help people anticipate better what awaits them
I agree, I'd already planned a line under each diagram giving the carriage label.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Martin View Post * Include a typical train layout/ ordering of carriages as several people who asked me for help at stations were confused and worried about where was the best part of the platform to wait
Excellent idea, and one that I hadn't thought of, see my last post for a first try at a train formation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyBoy View Post I think the idea of having description with every diagram is a good one. The most important, I think , is to communicate which seat is lower/middle/upper, which could be achieved with a small key on each diagram. (or suffix "^" for upper, "<" for middle etc), although having seen the description diagram, its already pretty clear.
Yes, one of the hardest things to get across is the daytime seat and overnight berth combinations for each seat number, but I'm reluctant to add anything else to the diagrams as I think they're already a little crowded.

But I'll have another look at this in the description diagram, I think if I can get the info across clearly on the description diagram, it'll likely be the best I can do regarding this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyBoy View Post If you are re-doing the description diagram, you might be able to make it a little clearer, if you can figure out how to cut and paste your text, without the "aliasing" appearing around the text - are you using Microsoft Paint?

There's a great freeware graphics editor called Paint.net, which should get you around this problem, and allow the text to remain as text rather than graphics, to allow you to edit it more easily.
Yes, I was using Microsoft Paint, I'd start off with Microsoft Word, then capture that 'image', then transform it with 'Paint'.

Wow, Paint.net is awesome, I just found and downloaded it, I wish I'd found this before I started the diagrams, I've a feeling it would have been easier to do.

I'll have a play around with Paint.net and probably do the new description diagram using it.

But I'm reluctant to start playing around with the carriage layout diagrams, though I'll make a copy of one and then have a play around using Paint.net

Looking at the diagrams (try a complex one like the 2S diagram), is there anything simple I can do with Paint.net to sharpen up the diagrams a little?



Quote:
Originally Posted by drgrudge View Post 1. Garib Rath 3A
The 3A coaches has only 75 berths. Berths 73-75, is almost a "private cabin." [Photo]
I've already done a long explanation to go below the Garib Rath diagram, including explaining that there are many different designs of Garib Rath carriages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgrudge View Post 2. You left Garib Rath CC, Executive CC (Shatabdi Express) and 2S (Jan Shatabdi).
The 'Bookable 2nd class seat, type 1' diagram is the Jan Shatabdi 2S carriage.

I completely forgot about the ECC class when I was taking the photos and the details, so this class will have to be added at a later date, I was wondering who'd be the first to notice this class was missing.

The Garib Rath Chair Class, it's always wrong to allow personal feeling to come into a factual thread, but I have regarding this class, I consider this class to be a joke class, and one that doesn't deserve the time to explain it, it is no way to travel on long distance overnight trains, a seat, and a fairly tight seat, with well over 100 seats per carriage, it was a mistake by Lalu to think this class would be popular, and I see many Garib Rath trains no longer include these carriages.

I have already added a few comments about this class in the Garib Rath comments, but I won't be doing a diagram for this class and I didn't bother taking any photos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drgrudge View Post 4. Do you know that some have spotted even a 1A cum 3A coach? Some trains even have PS1 (like H1, B3, S9, D2, etc.). It's partly Pantry Car and partly 2S.
Yes, there are many weird and wonderful combinations, I travelled in a rare carriage myself a few years ago, a FC/SL combination on the Brahmaputra Mail, but this carriage has been removed from that train now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgrudge View Post 5. The first diagram - "Description diagram" needs work. The words aren't comfortable to read. Too much information and make anyone confuse.
I'm going to be doing a new Descriptions diagram, it will be better spaced out, and I'll be using Paint.net, and that should help to make it easier to read.


Quote:
Originally Posted by clivington View Post - Use "Str" horizontally rater than "STR" vertically.

- Don't use "C" for cupboard as it's used for other purposes. And does everyone understand the word? Would "cabinet" be better? (In which case use "Cab"). But then maybe that would confuse with "Cabin"... Didn't spot "C" used in the carriage layouts.

- When describing Cabin A there are two "Lower number"s.

- For the circled seats 56 and 52 it might be better to say "Blue circle indicates an emergency window which can be opened for unrestricted view." My immediate thought was that the note referred to all seat numbers!
Thanks, I'll look into those points and see what I can do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by clivington View Post - For the wash hand basins you needn't say there's a basin inside and outside the toilet - the elipse indicates that.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clivington View Post - The elipse in the rectangle note could say "Basin under foldaway table". It's obvious that it would be fixed.
True, I'm terrible at thinking of the wording, I'll never use 4 words when 15 could be used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal View Post Would a section of the carriage help so you could see the tiers, the headroom in your bunk, and the window location?
I thought about that, but the photos are good, and I've also included the measurements of each berth (to go after each diagram), and also the headroom where needed.
#19 May 2nd, 2009, 08:12
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#19
I don't know if this is of any relevance but possibly marking in where the carriage wallah?? sleeps, you know that little box compartment across from the western toilet. Now I don't know if there's one to each carriage but it's useful to know where to find someone in case there's an emergency...or in my case to just keep pestering him...'are we there yet, are we there yet?'

Also I'm not sure if this is kosher, but on one train I was on there was a girl desperatley looking for the electric point between carriages to charge her phone. She kept saying 'it's usually around here' but I had no idea where she meant. Now I've no idea if it's common practice for passengers to use these points or if it's something that's completely discouraged.

Maybe that's not quite the level of detail you were looking for but you did ask for suggestions.... Keep up the excellent work, Stephen. You are very much appreciated on here.
#20 May 2nd, 2009, 08:33
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#20
Quote:
Originally Posted by lara352 View Post I don't know if this is of any relevance but possibly marking in where the carriage wallah?? sleeps, you know that little box compartment across from the western toilet. Now I don't know if there's one to each carriage but it's useful to know where to find someone in case there's an emergency...or in my case to just keep pestering him...'are we there yet, are we there yet?'
Not quite the level of detail I want to go to.

By the way, with a 'Trains At A Glance' and a little common sense, you can always tell where you are to the nearest 100 metres, and you can do this in seconds.

It's all to do with the kilometre stones along the side of the tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lara352 View Post Also I'm not sure if this is kosher, but on one train I was on there was a girl desperatley looking for the electric point between carriages to charge her phone. She kept saying 'it's usually around here' but I had no idea where she meant. Now I've no idea if it's common practice for passengers to use these points or if it's something that's completely discouraged.
Yes, in almost all carriages there are sockets to charge your mobile phone or your laptop, at the ends of the carriages in Sleeper Class, and by your seat in most air con classes (1A, 2A and 3A.).
#21 May 2nd, 2009, 08:38
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#21
<cross-posting>

Excellent work as usual, Steve; don't have much to add, or I might be missing some details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_ber View Post is the first one better or the 2nd?
I thought the first one much better, probably much easier to follow for a complete newbie to the subject. The second is far more abstract, the first one should help people visualize it.

A minor note: Those fold-in tables seemed to be quite common in Sleeper Class now even (as are little nets to hold your water bottle or magazines), a novelty to me, or I must have forgotten about them. Handy for eating that on-board dosa!

Regarding the post just above, yes, electrical sockets seemed to be likewise common, even in Sleeper Class, probably at either or at least one end of each carriage, so by the lavatories. Meant for powering up your mobile phone or laptop, I'd suggest using a surge protector just to be sure (wasn't unhappy to have brought one to India anyway. In Mandu where power is rationed, mine would actually make clicking noises! )

Where the guards or attendants (not sure what you mean) sit or sleep on the other hand I don't think is so clearly defined no, I think they just grab a seat as and when it suits them. Or again, at least in Sleeper Class. The pantry folks may have a pantry car; or my impression was they may just squat a larger section between carriages for lack of one.
#22 May 2nd, 2009, 11:17
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#22
Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_ber The Garib Rath Chair Class, it's always wrong to allow personal feeling to come into a factual thread, but I have regarding this class, I consider this class to be a joke class, and one that doesn't deserve the time to explain it, it is no way to travel on long distance overnight trains, a seat, and a fairly tight seat, with well over 100 seats per carriage
Unlike Rajdhanis, Garin Rath has more stopping. I can travel from MAS-BZA in MAS Garib Rath in CC. How about KCVL-MAQ in the KCVL-LTT Garib Rath.


wrt your new diagram, some trains have only 1A. Not that all trains have 1A cum 2A. And most of the times, the PC is between S4 and S5, not between the end of 3A and S1. The guard van cum ladies 2S unreserved/parcel van/handicap person van is abbreviated 'SLR'.
#23 May 2nd, 2009, 14:16
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#23
Dear Drgrudge,

##To the best of my knowledge, you can see PS1 only in 2635/2636 and 2605/2606.

Dear Steven,

##For your info, I have seen a SL Coach with 84 Berths.:-)

##There are GR3AC Coaches with 78/81/84 Berths combination.
#24 May 2nd, 2009, 14:22
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#24
Dear drgrudge,

The guard van cum ladies 2S unreserved/parcel van/handicap person van is abbreviated 'SLR'.

##A small correction. In the presence of portion for "Disabled" in the SLR, it will be called SLRD.
#25 May 2nd, 2009, 14:39
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#25
VSP sir,
Thanks for the info. I came to know abt the PS1 recently when I dropped my brother at MS (Pallavan Exp.).

Some queries:
1. What does SLR stand for? (other than Sri Lankan Railway)
2. What are the unserved 2S coaches abbreviated as?
3. Train 6124 does a loco reversal at NCJ. Can't the loco "push" till NCJ (just 60 Km, and there's no traffic when it departs from TVC till NCJ but for the 6526 departing TVC 20-30 min ahead of it) and then proceed normally till MS?
#26 May 2nd, 2009, 14:56
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#26
Dear drgrudge,

Train 6124 does a loco reversal at NCJ. Can't the loco "push" till NCJ (just 60 Km, and there's no traffic when it departs from TVC till NCJ

##No,Sir. Normally this is NOT permitted. If the Loco pushes, how the driver can see the signal aspects/caution orders? :-)
#27 May 2nd, 2009, 17:14
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#27
Dear Steven,

it is no way to travel on long distance overnight trains, a seat, and a fairly tight seat, with well over 100 seats per carriage, it was a mistake by Lalu to think this class would be popular,

##The 2740 SC-VSKP GR has got One Chair Car. On 29th April and also on 1st May, this Coach was packed and all the Normal & Tatkal Quota Seats were fully booked and even a few passengers were dropped from both normal waiting list & tatkal waiting list.

##This is the demand despite the fact that seating arangement is most inconvenient.
#28 May 2nd, 2009, 18:01
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#28
The diagrams are equally clear, with the level of detail supplied, appropriate , elegant and sufficient.

Some minor and a couple of significant suggestions to make

* Having a key bigger than the diagram is a tad odd, not sure of an appropriate suggestion for improvement but ...

* You might use the S1-S2- ... -S10-B1-B2- convention to allow the graphic representation of carriages to be larger.

* What about the toffs who want to ride first class AC on the trains where there is a carriage of just 1A class

As I have reached the age and state of decrepitude where the luggage with legs, as in the Terry Pratchet universe, would be a 'good thing' a diagram for the daytime trains could also be very helpful detailing the toffs class, where applicable as on Shatabdi, and the CC and 2S mix.

As a frequent single traveler I find getting back to the station entrance to check the concourse display of the train make-up, should there be one, nigh on impossible. This information is easy to access, when available, if one is traveling with family or friends or if one's train leaves from Platform 1 but ... on a couple of occasions even when there was a working overhead carriage indicator sign on the platform I have had to trundle my luggage up and down a crowded platform, as being in a state of ignorance and myopia, I had walked in the wrong direction to find the appropriate place to struggle into the train at a two minute halt. Watching the train arrive and reading the carriage labels is less than an ideal solution for a fit backpacker, let alone a decrepit old ghet.

Then there are the Rajdhani trains with their 1A, 2A and 3A make up. Anecdotal evidence indicates that many 'newbie' visitors to India tend to use these high profile trains and are appalled by the rapacious and predatory behaviour of rail porters, or just don't trust shabbily dressed and apparently aggressive guys trying to rip one off to feed their families. These diagrams might help some escape from their fear of being mistaken for a 'lazy fat (mem)sahib with more money than sense.'

This could involve four of five layout/make-up diagrams

Finally, no advice about traveling by Indian Rail is complete without a picture of the TTI or ticket-man, who can be one's saviour without requiring a 'present for the grandchildren'. Whilst talking about photos I have been asked on several occasions as to where a particular carriage would stop as people had failed to notice the illuminated overhead sign, so perhaps a picture of these would help ... the presupposition of knowledge/ common sense by the experienced can be a massive hindrance to the writing of clear instructions for the mere mortal one once was. I still and at those moments of prior to a and expect more next time I go.

And lastly back to trivia .... where are you going to place the "Don't Panic ..."

Martin
#29 May 2nd, 2009, 18:42
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#29
Martin, we must meet one day soon, your post had me in stitches.

I'll reply soon to all the points raised in the last few posts.

Bye the way....in the first post, I added the diagram for Air Con Chair Car (Type 1)

I've changed the colour slightly and sharpened the diagram and ended up with.....

Name:  CC type 1.........jpg
Views: 16180
Size:  26.4 KB



Lets see what I can do with the very crowded 2S diagram.
#30 May 2nd, 2009, 19:41
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#30
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Label Indian style toilet as Indian style toilet (squat)
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