the copy cat culture

Digital Drifter

If you only knew how bad it is, the amount of innuendo, gore & violence has made me stop watching Tamil movies for quite some time. In the last 5-6 years, I average about 6-8(toooo many) movies a year out of which I regret watching half of them. I watch them based on reccos from colleagues and it has without exception been a lousy choice for most of them. It makes you u'stand the term 'banality of violence' vis-a-vis the 'banality of evil'. thankfully, it's all on screen, the only comfort.

But I shudder to think of people drawing the wrong conclusions from them. Personally, I rate them below pr0n movies, the whole lot of them, [H,B,K]ollywood in different measures. But people do celebrate the violence it portrays which is a reflection of the times we live in, I dare say.

S.V Sekhar[1], in an interview, flat out said this(paraphrasing)
" I think people in AP,TN and in general the southern states are really movie mad. There I was, standing at the railway station when a fan recognizing me said 'sir, why don't you jump from this platform to the next, zing, like that?' he said that 'zing','zing'. Doesn't he know what a shoot involves? The effort, the acting, the time..."

Just think of the effect on impressionable minds! This, coming from a chap who grew up on a diet of Rajnikanth movies! :-)

--
[1] A stage actor/comedian who's also done movies

phantom

For years we have been fed on this kinda cinema by hindi moviedom but things are looking up now.. I mean you have to watch the movies by Ramgopal Verma or Farhan akhtar to find out that .. Anyways trash movies are always made in the West also.. its not that all the movies made in Hollywood are cool... They also make copies and don't give the proper recognition from where they have lifted the idea..
In short like in life there's both good and bad everywhere and you must have to learn to pick the good ones ...

raos

This is a funny/interesting thread. I find the Bollywood apologists particularly funny. Hollywood does put out its share of crap, but has a thriving side which makes good, realistic drama. Bollywood produces no such thing, no real drama to speak of. Can anyone explain to me what makes SRK a good "actor"? Singing, dancing, and melodrama are fine if that's what you like, but it's not credible to pretend it's something more than it is just because it's so popular in India.

As far as ripping of the West, it is done without any conscience or creativity. It reminds me of back several years ago, when so many people would put Mercedes or BMW insignias on their Marutis or use some Western brand name as a store name (e.g. Honda Chemist). A silly attempt at status that was completely transparent and out of natural context. It's true Indian audiences lap it up, but it's hilariously obvious (even more so when filmmakers claim original ownership of the stories and gimmicks they take from Hollywood!). Surely art is a continuum in which nothing is really original; however, Bollywood is on the extreme when it comes to straight up copying with little creativity.

Nick-H

And these 'actors' don't even sing their own songs

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India Edge

You may call me an apologist (laugh it up) if you like, but I would just say I'm a fan. Because you don't see the merit of a particular art form does not mean it's not art or has no value. And Bollywood is an art form, even containing different styles within the genre - family entertainers like K3G and Veer Zaara, violent films such as Kaante or Road, and what they refer to as art films like Fire or Ankur.
Bollywood films tackle social and political issues. They almost always contain moral lessons. Some early Bollywood film makers were world class pioneers of movie making. As far as creativity goes - I've seen countless things in Indian movies I've never seen in western film.
When you state that "Indian audiences lap it up" you perhaps imply that they are unsophisticated? Maybe they just know how to have a good time

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raos

India Edge, I can respect that (though admittedly I have no respect for modern Bollywood films). I wouldn't so much say that Indian audiences know how to have a good time, but rather that Bollywood films are pure escapism. This is important, since there's a lot to escape from for the majority of people in India. Of course something like art is culturally situated; Bollywood films have a meaning within India that is clearly special. However, really good art IMO will successfully cross cultural and national boundaries. I don't think Bollywood films, in general, have this quality. Most filmgoers in the West would "laugh up" these films which have such deep meaning in India.

As far as creativity and originality, I was only referring to those aspects of Bollywood films which are "borrowed" from Hollywood. I don't think this has been done in a creative way, but simply ripped off and held up as original.

And sure, there have been some good social/political messages (Veer Zaara is an example), but there have also been many bad, such as the move in Bollywood towards thinner and thinner heroines and the always-present light-skinned standard of beauty (two more unfortunate ideas borrowed from the West ). For every Veer Zaara, there's been more than a few that demonize Pakistan.

Nick-H

Not really: many lyricists write word to exisiting tunes. It is not always the words that come first. And there must be many lyricists that translate for cover versions in different languages.

Nick-H

Oh yes! But if I'm watching with Indian friends and I comment on how pale-skinned the heroines are, I get blank stares, remarks that that is the way it should be, or mention of some name of someone whose skin is maybe one shade darker.

India Edge

raos-
Some of your criticisms are valid (the trend to western beauty standards, nationalism, the ratio of quality to quantity) but I think the same can be said of American movies. Perhaps even more so. Besides, If Bollywood made films according to western standards, what would be so Bollywood then?
I think what constitutes good art ("really good art IMO will successfully cross cultural and national boundaries") is debatable. The definition is always changing - naive and outsider art is quite accepted as good art now for example. And Bollywood certainly crossed cultural and national boundaries to get to me. So, really good art? I dunno about that, I would just say that Bollywood is a valid and worthy art form. Because it is a pop art form doesn't really diminish it (thank you Mr. Warhol). Because it is escapist doesn't neccessarily diminish it. American movies were very much an escape during the depression and war years.
And while some find the copying of other movies objectionable, I often (it doesn't always work) find it entertaining and humorous. Indeed it is somewhat characteristic of the genre.
I think you're right that "Most filmgoers in the West would "laugh up" these films which have such deep meaning in India". A pity, I think.
Anyway, different strokes for different folks as they say...

Nick-H

Bollywood is no more art than any TV soap. It is entertainment.

Entertainment doesn't have to be art, it has to be entertaining, preferably (to its financiers) to as many people as possible.

Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with not being able to stand it either.

But if anyone wants to pretend that it is art then they'd better be prepared for intence criticism. Even real art gets that!

Nick-H

OK, it has its moments... the set design in DevDas, the dance sequence coreographed by Birju Maharaj.

sadhuji

nice to see so many interesting comments - can someone explain why so many song and dance sequences are there in bollywood movies?

yes, when songs are required, let us have them (examples - 'can-can' maurice chevalier, 'come september' doris day, 'sound of music', 'summer holiday' elvis presley , 'the millionairess' peter sellers etc).

what is the justification in holding on to the heroine and going round and round and ending the sequence by turning her upside down? doesn't it look silly?

Bigzero

One complaint i have about bollywood is that it has, over the years, reinforced certain stereotypes which have to some extent influenced the society ( in various degrees).

some examples

- widows will wear ONLY white sarees
- putting a red bindi on a widow's forehead is a crime more serious than rape or murder
- it is ok to slap your wife if she crosses the "limits" e.g. questioning the husband etc
- snakes are people ( or people are snakes - i am confused) - or at least, snakes are either vengeful villains or some avatar of gods/goddesses
- you can only be 100% good or 100% bad. the occasional grey characters will anyway pay a price and die at the end of the movie
- girls cannot think/talk of sex. girls who do, are vamps, and they get bad treatment from the nice girls or the hero.
- an unwed mother is the bane of the society

the list can go on and on... some movies do change it ( more and more are coming out nowadays ) and they confuse the audience in general. For example, Fire created such a controversy since it talked about lesbianism the existence of which was completely ignored by bollywood. and there were even statements that something like that "does not exist in india at all".

i think some young directors/producers are changing the trend nowadays.

Hollywood is not immune from stereotypes either! starting with :
- Americans are always right.
.....

in this context i like foreign language films better ( perhaps because i dont know enough of them to know what stereotypes exist ). i have always enjoyed the rare french, italian, iranian , japanese or swedish films that one gets a chance to watch.

one last point. Even art house movies have a set formula. especially in india.

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phantom

I think the whole point of debate over here is, please don't generalize Hindi cinema just because you have seen some crap by some c-grade directors. There is good Hindi cinema out there if you care to watch.. In any given year Mumbai produces more no. of quality and non escapist films than Hollywood. I needn't give you the names of movies like satya, saraansh, ardhsatya, pinjar, or more recently lakhsya .. if that's what u want.
The Song and Dance sequences on which ppl are making such a hue and cry .. were supposed to be part of the story and convey the feelings in a poetic manner .. and no more. Just because some directors have forgotten that .. doesn't mean the whole cinema is bad.. Tell me any non escapist movie of west that was lapped up by ppl out here .. its just the different cultures. We both like each others entertaining movies but because sensitive movies are made on the ppl of a particular society or culture that others find hard to understand.
So the best part is instead of lambasting the whole cinema.. just pick up whatever you find good and get on with it .. There's no use crying abt things you just don't have the patience to understand.

theshutterbug

Well said
SRK's "popularity" shows large scale of immature audience.
I would any day have couple of films from ppl like aamir khan, amitabh, sanjeev kumar than tons of trash from SRK

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