Can you help my journey from Dharam to Leh come to fruition?

Darmabum · Dec 16th, 2008, 08:43

And now, after many of us have answered your questions, I'm curious . . . why India for you? I've been curious about "why India" for me since I first went in '82, shed a little light on this, at least for me . . . why India for you?

sodiesarin · Dec 16th, 2008, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmabum

And now, after many of us have answered your questions, I'm curious . . . why India for you? I've been curious about "why India" for me since I first went in '82, shed a little light on this, at least for me . . . why India for you?

Its is three fold why I want to go toNORTHERN India more than any where else.
1) I have wanted to go to Tibet since I was 9.
Now that I have some money and all the time
I need, I thought Id go somewhere similar
to Tibet but not in China, the most obvious choice is Dharamasala.
2) I REALLY dont like to be around a lot of people
and after looking into it, Dharamsala isnt
dense with people rather it is dense in nature
and Im all about being "shocked" with the stunning
nature that Hemachal Predesh possesses.
3) If you read my bio you will see I am a visual
artist and one thing Northern India has is a lot of
"visuals"...eye candy.
So, I will piss in a whole without complaint
as long as I get up to Mc Leod Ganj...
About Hawaii, it has too many western people, I prefer the Marquesa Islands over Hawaii

and yes, Ill piss in a whole there too if I
have to.

dzibead · Dec 16th, 2008, 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

Its is three fold why I want to go toNORTHERN India more than any where else.
1) I have wanted to go to Tibet since I was 9.
Now that I have some money and all the time
I need, I thought Id go somewhere similar
to Tibet but not in China, the most obvious choice is Dharamasala.

But Dharamsala ISN'T like Tibet. Yes, a lot of ethnic Tibetans live there, some of whom were originally from Tibet but many of whom were born and raised in India, and as much as a lot of them would like to deny it, they are are pretty "desi-fied" - plus, it's not as if there aren't zillions of Indians living there, too.

Ladakh, on the other hand, is like Tibet, culturally and topographically (at least it's like western Tibet, which essentially it is: high desert on the Tibetan Plateau.) Another place in India that's "like Tibet" in many ways is Sikkim. Although ethnic Nepalis (who are Hindus, or in some cases Christians) are the dominant population group in Sikkim (about 80-85% of the population), there's a lot of Tibetan culture there because the rulers and aristocrats were culturally and ethnically Tibetans/Tibetan Buddhists, and also geographically, it's like the Kongpo region of Tibet, which it borders - heavily forested, and except at higher altitudes, quite temperate and even sub-tropical! Sikkim is not actually up on the Tibetan Plateau, but its mountainous northern region abuts the approach to the Tibetan Plateau. The scenery is Sikkim is spectacular, but the best time of year to see it is early winter, because the monsoon is over and the air is clear.

But the bottom line is, if you really want to go to Tibet, go to Tibet. Eastern Tibet (the Kham region) will knock your socks off! And it's still "really Tibetan" - way more than Dharamsala, that's for damn sure!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

2) I REALLY dont like to be around a lot of people and after looking into it, Dharamsala isnt
dense with people rather it is dense in nature
and Im all about being "shocked" with the stunning
nature that Hemachal Predesh possesses.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Dharamsala "isn't dense with people"? Dharamasala is stuffed with people, including lots and lots and lots of Westerners, and it is extremely touristy. There is gorgeous scenery and "nature" in HP for sure, but that scenery also attracts a lot of Indian tourists, so unless you arrange some trekking into more isolated areas, you may find yourself surrounded by more people than you anticipate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

3) If you read my bio you will see I am a visual artist and one thing Northern India has is a lot of
"visuals"...eye candy.

There is more eye candy than you can believe EVERYWHERE in India. And Dharamsala isn't even close to the top of the list of places to see the best of it, IMHO. (P.S., I'm not putting Dharamsala down. I like it, have spent time there, and have friends who live there. But I think you have a gross misconception - and a romantically rosy view - of what it's actually like).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

So, I will piss in a whole without complaint
as long as I get up to Mc Leod Ganj...
About Hawaii, it has too many western people ...

Then you may find Dharamsala a bit disconcerting. There's probably no place in India where more Westerners congregate, except maybe the beach areas of Goa. It's really not what you are thinking, and I can't imagine what you are reading that's giving you these inaccurate ideas.

I think you have quite a bit more research to do, because you've got some big-time misconceptions going. This site has lots of info, so spend time browsing and reading. I suspect Ladakh is more what you have in mind, but DO learn about the acclimatization process. vistet's info on acclimatization, particularly if you go from the plains to Leh by the Manali Road, is invaluable. Most people who fly into Leh, rather than going by road, can acclimatize in a couple of days, but keep in mind that some people have a lot more trouble than others, and some (relatively few) people never really acclimatize at all. And it's not just a matter of your overall fitness, either, although all other things being equal, being more fit probably enhances your ability to acclimatize. But innate physiology has a lot to do with it.

I will say this, though: if you are worried about acclimatizing to Dharamsala, which is only at about 6000 feet, don't even think about going to Ladakh! Going from sea level to 6000 feet really causes zero altitude effects; going from sea level (or even 6000) feet to 12,500 feet in one day is another kettle of fish. I generally acclimatize easily; I feel no effects of going from, say, Delhi to Leh in a plane ... until I start to walk around ... or sleep. Not run. Not hike or climb. Just walk around. It takes me a day before I can walk half mile without threatening to black out. And sleeping before you are fully acclimatized is tricky because of the different blood chemistry involved in the process of breathing while sleeping. So take acclimatization seriously if you are going to go over 10,000 feet and plan to stay there. Going right up to 10K or even somewhat higher and then right back down isn't what causes the problems. It's going up and staying there that gets tricky.

Brisso · Dec 16th, 2008, 10:15

Useful discussion Dzi - very detailed and insightful. But let's cut the new member some slack - she does seem to be making an effort to understand the landscape and implications.

McG is touristy, but there are numerous locations (Bir and surrounds etc) within a not very great distance that are sublime and where you have services without multitudes of the charis and chocolate pancake set.

nayan · Dec 16th, 2008, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

I calculated the distance to be around 250 kms between the two places
and I got all the time in the world BUT a very limited budget thought.
Can someone please help me make this come to fruition please….

I agree with everything Dzibead has said.

Moreover your distance calculation is way off.

Leh to manali is about 350km by road and manali to dharmshala another 250km. So it brings the total to 600km.

have a look at the site http://maps.mapmyindia.com/ its good for calculating distances and routes(road) in India.

I have a hunch that ladakh will be more like the place you are dreaming of. have a look at the ladakh forum
http://www.indiamike.com/india/ladakh-and-zanskar-f31/

sodiesarin · Dec 16th, 2008, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzibead

But Dharamsala ISN'T like Tibet. Yes, a lot of ethnic Tibetans live there, some of whom were originally from Tibet but many of whom were born and raised in India, and as much as a lot of them would like to deny it, they are are pretty "desi-fied" - plus, it's not as if there aren't zillions of Indians living there, too.

Ladakh, on the other hand, is like Tibet, culturally and topographically (at least it's like western Tibet, which essentially it is: high desert on the Tibetan Plateau.) Another place in India that's "like Tibet" in many ways is Sikkim. Although ethnic Nepalis (who are Hindus, or in some cases Christians) are the dominant population group in Sikkim (about 80-85% of the population), there's a lot of Tibetan culture there because the rulers and aristocrats were culturally and ethnically Tibetans/Tibetan Buddhists, and also geographically, it's like the Kongpo region of Tibet, which it borders - heavily forested, and except at higher altitudes, quite temperate and even sub-tropical! Sikkim is not actually up on the Tibetan Plateau, but its mountainous northern region abuts the approach to the Tibetan Plateau. The scenery is Sikkim is spectacular, but the best time of year to see it is early winter, because the monsoon is over and the air is clear.

But the bottom line is, if you really want to go to Tibet, go to Tibet. Eastern Tibet (the Kham region) will knock your socks off! And it's still "really Tibetan" - way more than Dharamsala, that's for damn sure!

Where on earth did you get the idea that Dharamsala "isn't dense with people"? Dharamasala is stuffed with people, including lots and lots and lots of Westerners, and it is extremely touristy. There is gorgeous scenery and "nature" in HP for sure, but that scenery also attracts a lot of Indian tourists, so unless you arrange some trekking into more isolated areas, you may find yourself surrounded by more people than you anticipate.

There is more eye candy than you can believe EVERYWHERE in India. And Dharamsala isn't even close to the top of the list of places to see the best of it, IMHO. (P.S., I'm not putting Dharamsala down. I like it, have spent time there, and have friends who live there. But I think you have a gross misconception - and a romantically rosy view - of what it's actually like).

Then you may find Dharamsala a bit disconcerting. There's probably no place in India where more Westerners congregate, except maybe the beach areas of Goa. It's really not what you are thinking, and I can't imagine what you are reading that's giving you these inaccurate ideas.

I think you have quite a bit more research to do, because you've got some big-time misconceptions going. This site has lots of info, so spend time browsing and reading. I suspect Ladakh is more what you have in mind, but DO learn about the acclimatization process. vistet's info on acclimatization, particularly if you go from the plains to Leh by the Manali Road, is invaluable. Most people who fly into Leh, rather than going by road, can acclimatize in a couple of days, but keep in mind that some people have a lot more trouble than others, and some (relatively few) people never really acclimatize at all. And it's not just a matter of your overall fitness, either, although all other things being equal, being more fit probably enhances your ability to acclimatize. But innate physiology has a lot to do with it.

I will say this, though: if you are worried about acclimatizing to Dharamsala, which is only at about 6000 feet, don't even think about going to Ladakh! Going from sea level to 6000 feet really causes zero altitude effects; going from sea level (or even 6000) feet to 12,500 feet in one day is another kettle of fish. I generally acclimatize easily; I feel no effects of going from, say, Delhi to Leh in a plane ... until I start to walk around ... or sleep. Not run. Not hike or climb. Just walk around. It takes me a day before I can walk half mile without threatening to black out. And sleeping before you are fully acclimatized is tricky because of the different blood chemistry involved in the process of breathing while sleeping. So take acclimatization seriously if you are going to go over 10,000 feet and plan to stay there. Going right up to 10K or even somewhat higher and then right back down isn't what causes the problems. It's going up and staying there that gets tricky.

Dizibead,
I understand what you are saying about Leh being
more like Tibet and Dharamsala not.
I originally was going to go to Napal,(Katmandu)
and then onto Tibet but my mom and dad almost had a
choranary when I told them so I came up with this
plan, I guess you could call it "plan B."
The main reason for me going any where is so
that I can update my portfolio, everything else
is secondary.
I chose Dharamsala to Leh because it is reminiscent
of Tibet, its in the North,(Im going in May)
and there is a lot of eye candy, natural and
cultural.
Lastly, I truly hope that I do not offend any spiritual
people by going to their holy place just to
take/get imagery, I dont want to come off as if Im exploiting
their spiritual center, it is that Dharamsala, Leh & every
where in between will make for one heck of a portfolio piece.

sodiesarin · Dec 16th, 2008, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by nayan

I agree with everything Dzibead has said.

Moreover your distance calculation is way off.

Leh to manali is about 350km by road and manali to dharmshala another 250km. So it brings the total to 600km.

have a look at the site http://maps.mapmyindia.com/ its good for calculating distances and routes(road) in India.

I have a hunch that ladakh will be more like the place you are dreaming of. have a look at the ladakh forum
http://www.indiamike.com/india/ladakh-and-zanskar-f31/

Thank you very much for the map link, it
is at the top of my important bookmarks.
I have been using a "from here to there"
calculator and that is why I keep getting
inaccurate distance quotes.... thanks much!

sodiesarin · Dec 16th, 2008, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisso

Useful discussion Dzi - very detailed and insightful. But let's cut the new member some slack - she does seem to be making an effort to understand the landscape and implications.

McG is touristy, but there are numerous locations (Bir and surrounds etc) within a not very great distance that are sublime and where you have services without multitudes of the charis and chocolate pancake set.

And I qoute from Google:

"Trip Around Asia
Dan Bauer

This KML presents a photographic tour of Asia. Intrepid explorer, Dan Bauer, spent thirty months traveling across Asia and Australasia collecting many beautiful photographs. From bustling spice markets in India to the majestic Himalayan mountains, these images are all the better for being geograp..."end quote

the link for the overlay download:
http://www.google.com/gadgets/direct...round_Asia.xml

If you have Google Earth you REALLY should download
this overlay, if you dont have Google Earth you
should download it then download the overlay.
Being that most of you have been to India / Asia
this overlay will knock your socks off! Probably
bring up feelings of nostalgia for you people
that have already "been there done that".
Mr. Baur has put down 30 months of pictures videos,
trekk routes(drive), hiking routes, off the path obscure places etc....
Man would I love to pick his brains!
I cannot explain the extent of his coverage because
I have only been looking at Himmacal Pradesh and
there is the rest of Asia he has covered!
So, if you do not have Google earth, I hope you
get it and then this overlay.

dzibead · Dec 16th, 2008, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

Dizibead,
Lastly, I truly hope that I do not offend any spiritual
people by going to their holy place just to
take/get imagery, I dont want to come off as if Im exploiting
their spiritual center, it is that Dharamsala, Leh & every
where in between will make for one heck of a portfolio piece.

Don't worry about that. Dharamsala is hardly "a holy place" or even much of a "spiritual center", just because the Dalai Lama lives there! It's just a town, after all - and one filled to the brim with shops, restaurants, hotels and guesthouses catering to the hordes of tourists who flock there. And anyway, you'll hardly be the first person to travel to the area to take photos, so offending someone is the last thing you should worry about. To get an idea of what some other people have done, check out this guy's photos. He has a section on Himachal Pradesh in his "Himalayas" gallery. http://www.pbase.com/asianodyssey/root

sodiesarin · Dec 16th, 2008, 23:52

DZIBEAD:

BTW I LOVE the quote your using by Voltaire

sodiesarin · Dec 17th, 2008, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzibead

Don't worry about that. Dharamsala is hardly "a holy place" or even much of a "spiritual center", just because the Dalai Lama lives there! It's just a town, after all - and one filled to the brim with shops, restaurants, hotels and guesthouses catering to the hordes of tourists who flock there. And anyway, you'll hardly be the first person to travel to the area to take photos, so offending someone is the last thing you should worry about. To get an idea of what some other people have done, check out this guy's photos. He has a section on Himachal Pradesh in his "Himalayas" gallery. http://www.pbase.com/asianodyssey/root

I just looked at that mans Himachal Pradesh gallery
and my hands are sweating!!
The pic called, "Beaskund" took my breathe away..
Why the heck am I going to Ganj! I dont know.....
I want to be on the Manali to Leh road soo bad.
All his pics under the Himachal Pradesh link
are the type of images that I wan to capture
for my portfolio.....'
I wanna capture the rapture on film badly

vistet · Dec 21st, 2008, 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

How does one get Acclimated properly?
I read your myth section but I didnt see
a "not myth" section; how should I get acclimated?

You mean a section called ..Truth ?. Not sure I take myself that seriously. "Sleepless.." is my attempt at a practical approach to Manali-Leh , but I get your point : I tend to get carried away with physiology etc.

Here is the bare bones of acclimatization , first week :

1) Go fast to 2000+ meters and rest the first night there. Nothing good will happen below that altitude, nothing bad will befall you there. Many will protest at this , there are are cases of altitude sickeness around 2500 - but this with exertion. Rest , ok .

2) Get your next night around 3000.

3) Don´t go higher until you´ve had absolute bare minimum three nights total under 1) and 2).Follow safe ascent rules : max 500 meters higher per day , one extra night every 1000 meters.

4) Trust what your body says first , and numbers second. Headaches is always hypoxia until proven otherwise. No cause for panic , but an absolute signal not to go higher.The only practical alternative for going down from Leh is Saspol, some four hundred meters lower. Headache + any other symtom means AMS. Check on my blog for dehydrative headache test , when to push fluids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzibead

...I will say this, though: if you are worried about acclimatizing to Dharamsala, which is only at about 6000 feet, don't even think about going to Ladakh! Going from sea level to 6000 feet really causes zero altitude effects..

This is why my first recommendation always is : go via Shimla, then Manali. Shimla ,Manali and Dharamsala comes in that order in altitude from high to low. Manali is just around the threshold where acclimatization starts , and Dhasa is below.When you reach Manali , stay in Vashisht , the only part that actually lives up to the advertised altitude of 2050.

Once you hit the road to Leh the single most important factor is the night in Keylong , which is four hundred meters lower than Leh. If there is a choice , always take a night in Keylong over a night in Manali.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmabum

.. also went from Chengdu, China to Lhasa, Tibet - a difference of at least 10,000 feet in two hours, again, no problems.

So this means 800 meters - cabin pressure, round 2000, two hours - then 3660. What matters still is sleeping altitude , nights are both the crisis and opportunity in acclimatization. It´s perfectly okay to take people up to 4000 in unpressurised aircrafts in five minutes , as long as you throw them out fast enough. It´s done every day , called skydiving. You also have the Aiguille du Midi cable car , a twenty minute ride from Chamonix (1035) to the Aiguille summit (3842).Should be fun. Anyone who chose to stay on top would be hit a lot harder than someone doing Manali-Leh in a sensible way.

vistet · Dec 21st, 2008, 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

How does one get Acclimated properly?
I read your myth section but I didnt see
a "not myth" section; how should I get acclimated?

You mean a section called ..Truth ?. Not sure I take myself that seriously. "Sleepless.." is my attempt at a practical approach to Manali-Leh , but I get your point : I tend to get carried away with physiology etc.

Here is the bare bones of acclimatization , first week :

1) Go fast to 2000+ meters and rest the first night there. Nothing good will happen below that altitude, nothing bad will befall you there. Many will protest at this , there are are cases of altitude sickeness around 2500 - but this with exertion. Rest , ok .

2) Get your next night around 3000.

3) Don´t go higher until you´ve had absolute bare minimum three nights total under 1) and 2).Follow safe ascent rules : max 500 meters higher per day , one extra night every 1000 meters.

4) Trust what your body says first , and numbers second. Headaches is always hypoxia until proven otherwise. No cause for panic , but an absolute signal not to go higher.The only practical alternative for going down from Leh is Saspol, some four hundred meters lower. Headache + any other symtom means AMS. Check on my blog for dehydrative headache test , when to push fluids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzibead

...I will say this, though: if you are worried about acclimatizing to Dharamsala, which is only at about 6000 feet, don't even think about going to Ladakh! Going from sea level to 6000 feet really causes zero altitude effects..

This is why my first recommendation always is : go via Shimla, then Manali. Shimla ,Manali and Dharamsala comes in that order in altitude from high to low. Manali is just around the threshold where acclimatization starts , and Dhasa is below.When you reach Manali , stay in Vashisht , the only part that actually lives up to the advertised altitude of 2050.

Once you hit the road to Leh the single most important factor is the night in Keylong , which is four hundred meters lower than Leh. If there is a choice , always take a night in Keylong over a night in Manali.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmabum

.. also went from Chengdu, China to Lhasa, Tibet - a difference of at least 10,000 feet in two hours, again, no problems.

So this means 800 meters - cabin pressure, round 2000, two hours - then 3660. What matters still is sleeping altitude , nights are both the crisis and opportunity in acclimatization. It´s perfectly okay to take people up to 4000 in unpressurised aircrafts in five minutes , as long as you throw them out fast enough. It´s done every day , called skydiving. You also have the Aiguille du Midi cable car , a twenty minute ride from Chamonix (1035) to the Aiguille summit (3842).Should be fun. Anyone who chose to stay on top would be hit a lot harder than someone doing Manali-Leh in a sensible way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sodiesarin

I have been using a "from here to there"
calculator and that is why I keep getting
inaccurate distance quotes..

(Manali-Leh is just under 500 kilometers)

sodiesarin · Dec 21st, 2008, 08:46

Thank you for this advice, all probabilities
are that you just help me not get altitude sickness on top of my culture shock :O)

Dec 16th, 2008, 08:43	#16
Darmabum On the Road, wherever I am Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: in the mountains of Idaho . . . now the red-rock plateau of southern Utah Posts: 1,111	And now, after many of us have answered your questions, I'm curious . . . why India for you? I've been curious about "why India" for me since I first went in '82, shed a little light on this, at least for me . . . why India for you? __________________ Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate; our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure - Marianne Williamson

Dec 16th, 2008, 23:52	#25
sodiesarin Sodiesarin Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central New York, Utica Posts: 56	DZIBEAD: BTW I LOVE the quote your using by Voltaire Last edited by sodiesarin : Dec 16th, 2008 at 23:52. Reason: cuz I needed to

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Brisso Specialist muddler Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Brisbane Posts: 1,084	Useful discussion Dzi - very detailed and insightful. But let's cut the new member some slack - she does seem to be making an effort to understand the landscape and implications. McG is touristy, but there are numerous locations (Bir and surrounds etc) within a not very great distance that are sublime and where you have services without multitudes of the charis and chocolate pancake set.

Dec 21st, 2008, 08:46	#29
sodiesarin Sodiesarin Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central New York, Utica Posts: 56	Thank you for this advice, all probabilities are that you just help me not get altitude sickness on top of my culture shock :O)