Womens Experience in India from a male point of view

cyberhippie

So what was the jist of your post then that I am so misinterpreting?? Was it meant to show Indian men in a good light is that what I'm missing?? Or was it an honest attempt to let people see your cultural stumblings perhaps??
Or was it just another voice to add weight to idea of sleazy Indian men.

Ok you didn't use the words sleazy etc my apoligies for that at least but I really don't see that you were trying to show anything positve about the Indian male, either in their relation to you and other women traveller or indeed to Indian women, correct me if I'm wrong on that!

As I said before you could have chosen two other incidents but you chose this side of the debate and used your incidents to prove the theory!!
Or Am I to believe that it was just an innoccent sprinkling of events not intended to swing the argument one way or the other!!

And the quote from some yoga magazine is just one you tagged on the end of your post doesn't mean anything to you and you don't agree with the statement "there are exceptions to the rule!!

For the record I didn't much agree with the OP either but he only related real experiences not make mountains out of mole hills

As for our Indian lady member, well her take on India is her own and completely separate from the issue of women travellers in India as the life of an Indian woman is light years away from the casual traveller.
And it's not a story of across the board descrimination and cultural disadvantage!!
Strangely lots of families live just like us with happy wives and all!!

Your quote from the yoga magazine is what pissed me off with your finishing statement, "there are exceptions to the rule of course" that's not a question it's huge generalisation and one I imagine you adhere to or do you just post willy nilly without thinking about the impact of what you write???

Anamika

I just created this anonymous identity (oxymoron) in order to address this question, because I will be revealing a few experiences that I would not normally share openly. I am trying to address this issue in a reflective way to give perspective, hoping that no-one will be offended, or felt that my response was biased. (Oh, and please bear with my metaphors - I am in "the moral is"-mode right now)

If one flea were to bite a dog on its neck, and another on his tail, the dog feels as if his entire body is on fire. And so at times, when we are in a vulnerable position, the actions of a few can seem overwhelming.

I would contend that far fewer than 5% of men in India are actually guilty of projecting unwelcome attention beyond acceptable societal limits on women, western or otherwise. At the receiving end however the statistics mean nothing: it is purely a hellish experience in the moment and in retrospect.

Another thing to bear in mind is crowd dynamics (also called mob mentality). Being in a group of people allow and encourage ordinarily mild people to do things they would not normally attempt; anyone who has seen an instance of dharmadi where a crowd of bystanders would pull a driver from a vehicle and beat him severely - sometimes to death - for being involved in an accident which injured another; or in fact any of the multitudinous instances in the west where individually sane and calm people lost their minds in large groups and contributed to senseless acts.

The point I am trying to get to is that when there are a few men within a group (which might be as random as people waiting on the platform) who start acting in a way offensive or threatening to a woman, it is not inconceivable that it might escalate into a situation where she is unable to escape. This is true in any country or society - in India the population density is greater, and hence more crowded than most other places many tourists have visited.

The result is that the internal instinctive threat radar of many women might be more sensitive than is warranted.

Something else that sets off that alarm is the cultural difference. (Sorry for the obvious).

In the West we are taught at mother's knee:
It is rude to stare.
Never point at people.
Don't ask personal questions, especially of strangers.

In India there are many other taboos, but these are not among them (well, perhaps pointing in some cases). But the constant stares that are directed at one everywhere all the time are really uncomfortable, and even offensive to someone raised in the West. In the vast majority of cases, the stare is the result of simple curiosity - no different from that felt by your average American or German or whomever, but expressed in a way that is unfamiliar and hence threatening. (The same goes for the other issues too).

The combination of all the issues can result in a situation where a woman can feel under constant assault, exascerbated if she has already suffered some physical impropriety.

I am not of Indian origin; my husband spent the first 30 years of his life there. After many years in the west, and after we married, we lived in Chennai for a couple of years, and later in Hyderabad. During our stays I have felt at times highly discomforted by stares and by persistent personal questions, despite the fact that I recognized the origin of both the phenomena. I spent the time mostly untouched by anything more serious; perhaps the result of my husband's presence (he is a fair bit older than me) and likely also due to my substantial appearance.

Even so, there were a few shattering incidents:

• Being fitted for a sari blouse by the tailor, he worked his hand INSIDE my bra "to adjust the fit properly," while frantically kneading my breast!
• Walking along Pondy Bazaar (wearing a sari extremely chastely), two young men came up from behind, darted around me, and one grabbed a breast while the other looked on and laughed, before both running away.
• Standing in an overcrowded bus a man grabbed my groin with one hand while trying to work his other into my handbag. When I shouted, he jumped off the bus.

These incidents leave me with the taste of sawdust in my mouth, and I find them embarrassing to share. But in travelling extensively to the 4 metro's along with Hyderabad and Bangalore as well as a few smaller cities (although missing out on the very touristy destinations like Agra and Jaipur) and living in India for a couple of years, I would say that this is not unusual compared to what I face in the West.

I have experienced abuse far greater (and more frightening) outside of India, and I believe that were it not for the highly litigious society in the US, there would be a greater incidence of these events here as well. And if I had not been groped in overcrowded buses here, it is because the buses here are not overcrowded - in fact where I live the buses go by a quarter full.

So, what am I trying to say? I thought I had a point somewhere in there.

I think it is something along the lines of :

There are some pretty icky human beings out there, everywhere.
If India has the same number per capita as other countries, there would be many more such individuals in India by virtue of its population density.
The population density also makes for more crowded situations.
Tourists, especially females, surrounded by so much that is new and different for them (and thus at least slightly caught off-balance) find it even more tough than usual to cope with challenging situations, which is compounded by the fact of cultural expressions that within their personal code of conduct is construed as rude and even threatening.

So, mix in a few real icky people, some perceived threats, pressing crowds and a slight sense of disorientation in a strange country, and you have a truly uncomfortable experience.

How one deals with that experience is a personal thing, depending somewhat on personality, but mostly on things like how much you have invested in your stay (not financially), how close and how physical the icky people got (and there are far worse experiences than mine) and how persistent the onslaught and how great the perceived threat, as well as the available support system.

So, is there a real threat?
Yes, but in most cases it might not be quite as big as it appears to one in a particular situation.
However, this does not take away from the fact that it is real.

Vasko

It's a bit sad to see this thread degenerate into this sort of battle, especially on behalf of a moderator!!

Cyberhippie, I don't think the intent of anyone is to show that (Indian) men are all bad. I trust we are all smart enough to see that it isn't an either/or, black and white situation. Just because some people bring up some of their negative experiences doesn't imply they think the whole population is up to something nasty.

Anamika, thanks for sharing a balanced post.

katyrafi

Anamika, I was both fascinated and touched by your honest and detailed post which is clearly based on extensive experience and about which you have obviously given much thought. My heart bleeds for you in that your experiences have left such a sour taste in your mouth.

I too have had days when I have felt despair, feeling utterly lacking in the energy and resources to deal with the constant staring and sense of isolation that being a white woman alone in India can engender. But I guess that would be the same for anyone living as a stranger in a strange land.

As you put it:

"How one deals with that experience is a personal thing, depending somewhat on personality, but mostly on things like how much you have invested in your stay (not financially), how close and how physical the icky people got (and there are far worse experiences than mine) and how persistent the onslaught and how great the perceived threat, as well as the available support system."

This is the nub of it for me and with only my husband, his family and a few of his friends here, other more remote support systems become vital - like Messenger to chat with my family and, perhaps surprisingly IndiaMike.

I do believe it is important to keep things in proportion, however - to understand as much as possible why we feel the way we do (not just women) by the continual staring and associated behaviour and to do our absolute best not to overreact when such terrible and maybe not that rare incidents occur. These things happen to women all over the world, albeit more subtle in the West.

I too have had a similar 'tailor' experience where, after seeing the colour drain from my face after touching my nipples during a blouse fitting, the tailor tried to insist that he saw me as his daughter and wanted only to take care of me. I smiled (with a Pooh Bear glare in my eyes), said 'how kind of you', paid his money and never went there again - maybe I just don't like confrontation, maybe I should have made more of a fuss, I don't know.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It's good that there are many male indian members on this site - hopefully they too will be a little more understanding when us western women wear a permanent "I don't trust you" look in their eyes after a while and start to think all men are guilty until proven innocent - go easy on us, we might just be having a bad day!

__________________
Those who dare to fail miserably can achieve greatly

Nick-H

Olive Branch anyone?

Certainly I believe that Yogagal's hotel reception experience was misunderstood, as I have said previously ---it's also true that I wasn't there.

I don't think that the Indian gender question can be easily understood or explained. In many ways yes, it is almost medieval, and well-qualified women who never expect to be more than housewives and mothers after marriage abound. On the other hand, didn't India have the world's first female primeminister? One government office I visited this morning was run by a married woman.

Whilst there are certain actions that just cannot be misunderstood (the only occasion I can think of when I accidentaly put my hand inside a woman's bra (honest, gov...) was one of increasing physical intamacy anyway), there are differences in body language here that can be misunderstood. There is no point, for instance, in getting upset if someone pushes you out of their way ---because that is how to let someone know that they are in your way.

__________________
.


Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Sunray

Lot said on this topic. OK there are people saying that its only a percentage and most arn't like this, its worse in the west, its India you shouldn't respect their customs etc etc. Some of the posts are mind boggling.

Sexual harrasment is wrong and there are NO excuses.

Females are human beings and human beings deserve the same level of respect regardless of sex. Subgation of women is a common world wide problem, especially in Islamic countries. India is better, but experience tells me that its got a long way to go.

Taz

see what you started! as a newcomer though it has been very interesting to say the least - i love it xx

sshekhar

I had to add my 2 cents here, particularly after reading Anamika's posting. I would like to say that Indian culture is very respectful of women. Having said that, I have personally had experiences growing up in India when I would have to go shopping with my sisters/cousins/family etc and wanted to gouge the eyes out of some of those ogling a***holes in the city. Finally I just stopped going shopping with them, what you don't see can't hurt you.

But I believe that the current generation of India is going through some serious transitions where they are trying to drop a lot of their cultural baggage. Things like arranged marriage (atleast in traditional sense) are being reduced. Inter-caste/inter-religious marriages are increasing. It is probably for the first time that women are intermingling with men in the society (workplace/colleges/schools) etc. These men are trying to grow up and I am pretty sure within a generation things will be very different. Its the forbidden fruit problem we are dealing with. Most of these men growing up didn't have much interaction with women (schools/society etc). Now all of a sudden with things changing so rapidly they don't know how to handle themselves.

I was walking around South Extension area in New Delhi with some of my Manipuri friends. These girls with us were very pretty. Next thing you know this guy walking by grabs one of the girl's rear. She chased the guy, got hold of him and slapped the living lights out of him. Finally the whole market in the surrounding area came in beat the heck out of him. The police constable took him to his wife, the jackass was living nearby, and told her what he did. I think this kind of embarrasment is sometimes needed for these idiots. I think some western women, if hassled in a physical way should do something like this to make these idiots realize that 'women are people too'.

torryquine

Why should this statement upset or inflame anyone? It's a fact, get over it.
Indeed I'll say something similar myself:

It really p*sses me off when some bloke I wouldn't know from a bar of soap, thinks he has the right to make a lecherous comment at me


There, now did that inflame or upset anyone? Well too bad, I'll say it again....

It really p*sses me off when some bloke I wouldn't know from a bar of soap, thinks he has the right to make a lecherous comment at me


If hearing things like that annoy you, you need to do some serious thinking about why that is.

Thank you Sunray and Vasko, thank you from the bottom of my heart for empathising and understanding. May you have hundreds of sons and may you bring them all up to share your enlightened views, because the world needs more of your kindness and empathy than you will ever know.

A man can never know how simply awful it is to be on the receiving end of sexual harassment or descrimination. To make light of it, excuse it or dress it up as anything else is condoning the thin end of a very thick wedge which culminates in violence. Just because there are laws against 'Eve teasing" doesn't stop it happening. Laws don't change attitudes. And no, I am not just talking about India, I'm talking about womens experiences everywhere in the world. Just two examples of my own experience:

1)The Equal Pay act was passed in the UK in 1975 - but 30 years on, in the part of the country I live in women are still paid as much as 20% less than their male collegues who do the same job. Why? Because there is still the assumption that women either don't need or merit the same pay as a man and because women are afraid of being black-listed in this rather insular town, so they(we) don't speak up.

2)I spent a week in Paris with a mate some years ago. It was ruined and I mean absolutely RUINED by men who refused to leave us alone - didn't matter if we were together or separate, how we were dressed or where we were - we got hassled 6 or 7 times a day. We couldn't visit a gallery, walk through a park or sit and have a coffee without some plonker spoiling it for us. How do you excuse that?

My own experience of India was fine - but then I had my husband with me. Only on a few occassions when he was out of sight did I get approached with the smarmy comments. But why should that be? Am I only worthy of respect when I am visibly accompanied by a man? Or is the 'respect' only for the man?

Certainly I did get stared at a lot, but my husband noticed and commented on it much more than I did (I was too busy staring right back). So here's another thing I sometimes wonder about - on occasions when I have been abused or disrespected by a man (eg a flasher postman who came to our door), my husband has been FURIOUS and I mean raging mad, but I've never been sure if that anger is for the hurt and disgust that I've felt or if it's because another man has disrespected something he believes is "his"....?

One more thing I have to get off my chest (and why are you staring at it?).

We have such a long way to go in acheiving respect and equality for women everywhere and sometime women can be their own worst enemies in this regard by behaving in a way that encourages these attitudes to persist. But we would never have got to the stage we're at now had it not been for women like Germain Greer or Gloria Steinem who said a great many things which inflamed, annoyed and upset men and who didn't just shut up when they were told that their comments were inappropriate, their perceptions were wrong, their views misguided or their reactions disproportionate.

Thank you one more time Sunray and Vasko, men like you make me believe we are making progress in this world.

__________________
http://werenotafraid.com/

tonylittle

I have to confess I am one of the males who was not very good at dealing with staring Indian men! I don't think I helped at the time by saying to them "get yourself a life, you're looking at 2 of the ugliest women in Britain!" (which was not true of course) so I apologise and will try and behave myself when I go to India this Saturday. My remaining memory of the trip 2 years ago was you shouting across the courtyard of Amber Palace "Tony they're looking at me tits again!". By the way, welcome to Indiamike - how about telling us all about you?
Tony Little

cyberhippie

Torry I have never said that problems don't exist in India for women, though my wife and I have never experienced anything of the sort as have many many women. The staring goes on whether man or woman and is part and parcel of travel in India and is not sexual intimidation, in most cases just a need to stare
If you wonder why statements like

annoy me it's because they are an exaggeration, India isn't like that at all women get problems but it's not 24/7.
I've put my time in as you know and I've had this conversation more times than I can remember and both from personal experience and talking to hundreds of women on the subject you begin to realize that these things are blown out of proportion on INTERNET forums and guidebooks!
Many women go to India full of fear and trepidation based on the frequency of reports like this on travel forums and in guide books very many of them come back with a WTF attitude, where was all the harassment ogling and eve teasing.
That this exists is clear and the necessary guidance is needed but when I see statement like how awful, "derogatory and sick the 24/7 brushing against/ leering, staring is." and "there are exceptions to the rule of course" it falls to me and others with a different experience to explain for the good of other women traveler that this is not indicative of Indian men it's not even indicative of the men you'll generally come across in trains or tourist spots!!

Straight after this thread we have a woman poster who is full of fear about a job in India based on threads like this and others!!

Empathy is fine and has it's place but there is also a need to get some perspective on this, otherwise we are simply sending women to India on a hair trigger, ready to explode in the most innocent of situations and as other women posters have remarked,traveling a invisible force field around themselves and all the pressure that maintaining that brings.
Hey I get called fatty on a regular basis by juvenile idiots but they fade into the background next to all the nice people I meet.
So yes be sensible as a woman in India, ignore, the catcalls and sleazy behavior but don't go thinking every Indian male or even the majority are out to get you, there lies paranoia and a spoiled trip!!

I've asked this question before to illustrate my point of how safe/unsafe India really is.

Every year there are hundred of women walking home along the beach at night ,arriving late at night in a strange town and jumping a taxi or rickshaw, a few women with very bad judgment go drinking with strange men or their taxi driver, most get home safely without any drama to relate, this for me shows that India is at least as safe for women as your own country in some ways perhaps safer.
Does this say anything about India and how safe it is for women?????

Now I'm not making this all up I'm a people watcher by trade and I see how many supposed risks women take against good advise and walk away unscathed measure this up against stories of being stared at and you'll see how nonthreatening India is for women. The staring is uncomfortable and anyone who thinks it doesn't effect blokes is being chauvinist but dangerous no, easily ignored or countered yes.

So all the ladies who think I'm being blasé about this think again I'm simply bringing years of experience to bear on a very emotive subject if that upsets some of you so be it.
I won't simple stand by and listen to over exaggerations and generalisations about a country I love plus I think it serves little purpose to portray men in this fashion, relate experience great but adding tags that intimate that most Indian males are like this is just wrong.

I would feel exactly the same if someone said all Scots are a bunch of drunk aggressive wife beater or all Americans are brainless overweight bush lovers or all Israelis like to kill Arabs. These are stereotypes and I don't like stereotypes and threads like this seem to dish out a lot of stereotyping masquerading as the Indian reality, sorry but I don't apologies for trying to break them down!!

lotus blossom

i think you hit the nail on the head here. i think the transitions are really intensive right now. no excuse for such behavior, but again, being raised without the ability to make decisions and choices on one's own seems to be a part of the issue of growing up immature and clueless for many of these men.

For example, what of the MtV programs in India that show scantily clad women sexually writhing about? It was the most shocking thing that i saw in india on my last trip there. I cannot even imagine how it effects the hormone raging sexually repressed men there. It seems a crazy contradiction to the culture norms; to put in their face what is taboo. it's madness!

I've had my share of such icky experiences as a woman, both in india and here in my country. i think that we humans have a long way to go as a species before we evolve into compassionate, intelligent beings. in the meantime we must turn away from what is unacceptable and try to implement healthy change.

__________________
Not all who wander are lost

torryquine

Cyber, my post was in no way directed at you or anyone else. Neither was it intended to be a criticim of India which I agree is a very safe country. My point is that women face discrimination and harassment in every country and I wish there were many more men who realised (like Vasko and Sunray) that it is not harmless.

If a woman says she doesn't like something - she doesn't like it - fact. Why not let women describe their experiences in their own way, we are very good at knowing the difference between an unpleasant experience and a dangerous one. It can happen anywhere, anytime and in some circumstances can be quite over-powering like my experience of Paris which felt like 24/7 harassment, there's no point in pretending otherwise.

lotus blossom

i mentioned in an earlier post that on my first trip to india i was told to not make eye contact with the men, along with other things that are being discussed here. having been to india twice after that, i find that advice both bias and b.s. i think that we need to be careful about our generalizations and how we contribute to this issue of fear.

karolina

An interesting and important thread, and all along reading all your posts I felt like commenting, agreeing, disagreeing, but suddenly it's late and I think many points have been made already and I just want to add that I was more "sexually harassed" in Italy than I've ever been in India (although then I was younger, sort of care free and just laughed about it)...