Womens Experience in India from a male point of view

cyberhippie

Thank you Katyrafi for a more balanced view on this topic some of the comments here have been way off the mark! And full of ill informed stereotpying!!
Remembering that quite a large proportion of the IM membership is made up of Indian males!!

Nick-H

Yogagal, this probably had nothing to do with your being a woman.

The rules of Indian Interuption/Queueing are:

• The latest or loudest person to speak gets the undivided attention of the person spoken to.
• An approach from a person speaking an Indian language takes absolute priority over an ongoing conversation in a Non-Indian language
• There is no such thing as a queue

I can assure you that I have been getting very pissed of with this in London, long before I got here! Especially the language thing, that is really effective at making a person feel invisible!

There is, of course, for me, one solution only to this problem. Learn Tamil.

...or, I suppose I could try wearing very revealing clothing

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Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

cyberhippie

Happens to me all the time as well it's just the way things are, there is no sense of orderliness in getting served in India, so be patient. Of course I don't object when we become a "local" somewhere and get preferential treatment because of this.
Like our local Bhaji place, our breakfast is on the table the moment we sit down much to the chagrin of other customers I'm sure, who have to wait for their's
Anyway as nick says this probably had nothing to with gender, It's a curious habit of many Indian businessmen of trying to serve 6 people ar once, it works after a fashion but patience is required!!

Oh and women don't hold the monopoly on being stared at either that's something we all get to share on a trip to India!!

Beena450

Depending on the mood I'm in I either ignore the staring or I just raise my eyebrows and ask kya hai .... which roughly translates as whats up dude...
they usually look away sheepishly

We were always tought by my mum to say what we were thinking but be polite about it until you get to the point, where the other person is just not getting it, and then to be firm and to the point.

And I must admit, it worked for me a treat in india. The guy that kept standing next to me at the train ticket booth got asked nicely twice to move a bit and give me some space, which he did for 2 minutes and then decided he wanted to come back... the third time I made my request loudly and he decided to leave.

crvlvr

How true.. Remember, you cannot control the world around you, but only how you react. Here is one solution for women who don't want to be started at

Sama

hmmm....interesting.....since the two Indian guys came up to the desk speaking English.....

sorry to disagree, Nick, but you had to be there....

and to put things into perspective, sexual harassment is not about sex, it's about power and intimidation, something that some men, not all men, all over the world, not just India, think they can get away with. Obviously this store clerk was accustomed to hitting on women customers, so maybe he tries to hit on Indian women, too, who knows? But it is also obvious that he is in an environment where it's OK to do it -- in public, in an upscale store, in front of his co-workers. Whether my witty and sarcastic repartee with him gave him pause to think twice about doing it again, I have no way of knowing, but somehow I doubt it, since he tried the same thing with my friend from school...and that is more insidious than the act of sexual harassment, the environment that says it's OK, whether it's an office in Japan, a coal mine in the US, or a jewelery store in India.

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My India, 2005-2008

cyberhippie

Exactly Yogagal this is one shop, one guy trying his luck and has little to do with India at large this is not acceptable behavior in India. As beach so wisely put it these types of men deserve to be seen in the scuzzy light the create for themselves, not seen as an expression of Indian men in general or Indian culture!!

I see you've chosen to dwell on this one act to illustrate some point or another about Indian men, ignoring the dozens who probably helped you along the way or just plain ignored you.
So you had an unfortunate experience on a one month trip to India It doesn't say anything at all about the ways things are generally in India just that you were unlucky enough to fall victim of a scumbag!!
Although last time I checked it wasn't illegal to hit on a woman, anywhere!!

I've traveled for years in India with my wife without a hint of trouble other than those stares which are uncomfortable but hardly life threatening!!

Further to that thousands of women traveling India without a major problem (other than the staring)
And many more come back questioning threads like this one as hopeless exaggerations about the situation on the ground!

Again you hotel experience isn't to do with being a women it's the way it is in India OK

Sama

mentioning an incident does not mean I am "dwelling" on it -- that is really absurd and harsh. and if you think I was trying to "illustrate some point" about Indian men, and then telling me that I "ignore" the "dozens" who helped me, is even more ridiculous and frankly, accusatory, but of what, I don't know. Those IMers who know me (and I mean really know me, unlike you), know how I feel about India after my visit, which is something I really don't feel the need to explain to you.

And as for the "unfortunate experience", which are your words, not mine, it did not in any way color my attitude about my visit, just as one incident to a visitor to the US should not make them think that is the way the US is. Hell, if people took seriously half the stuff people write about here, it would scare off lots of people!

crvlvr

I think you are getting a store confused with the work-place. Sexual harrasment occurs typically when the harraser has some power/control over the one being harassed -- typically a boss and employee. It would be almost impossible for tan employee to harrass the boss or for a store clerk to harass a customer ( for fear of repurcussions) Although it is possible for a customer to harrass a store clerk. And it goes both ways. There have been lawsuits where women have been found guilty of harassing man.

IMHO, I think you are going over the top calling your experience at the hotel desk harrassment. Discimination? may be...

BTW, India has a bunch of "eve teasing" laws that give women grounds to press charges when "teased"

From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:La...ement_in_India

Sama

maybe you should do a closer reading. actually, I never referred to either incident as "harassment" in any of my posts. I merely wrote about what I experienced. Other people brought up the term "sexual harassment", starting in post 9, I think, and the discussion carried on from there.

cyberhippie

No not accusatory a simple observation you could have joined the debate relating how many Indian men had touched your life whilst in your beloved India. Men that didn't threaten you or harrass you in anyway and treated you with respect, you chose to jump in with both feet using couple of dubiuos "bad experiences" to lending weight to the argument that Indian men are predators and have no respect for women!!
Exclusive of any good experiences you may have had with the men of India!!

So yeah I suppose I am accusing you, accusing you of talking through your hat!!

For someone who loves India so much that sure is a funny way of showing it, you think Indian males on this forum will see that as a good representation of India and it's menfolk??

Sama

"you think Indian males on this forum will see that as a good representation of India and it's menfolk?"

hmmm....I think this thread was started by a man....writing about his observations..... nothing to say about his comments, cyberhippie? and nothing to say about the poster that mentions how "extremely unpleasant living in urban India as an Indian woman"?

just so I get this right, it's my original post, and mine alone, (where I never mention the words "harassment", "discrimination", or "predators") that you are so up in arms about? Interesting....

lotus blossom

this is perhaps the crux of the issue. so, what is wrong with an indian man hitting on a woman? it happens everywhere in the world. it's how men and women get together. maybe some of them lack couth, but i chalk that up to lacking the experience that we gain by dating.

i've been asked out/hit on by a number if indian men. it does not bother me, even if i feel that their manner is less than refined, and sometimes i may even say yes! and the staring simply seems to be born of curiousity. i do a lot of it myself being an avid observationalist. just stare back!

i think the big thing to remember about this whole issue, starting with the op, is that india is steeped in repression which comes out in many different ways, some of them which may seem rude, distasteful and disrespectful. but that's just india...

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cyberhippie

Your post struck me as rather pompous yogagal so I reacted, when you make statements like this

It only shows that you're not very in touch with India and Indians. The harassment, eve teasing etc though a problem remains the "exception to the rule" not the other way around, as in 90% of Indian men have no truck with harassing women and would not stand by and see it happen, yes all those faceless guys that never said boo to you are Indian men too, I dunno if you noticed but they were behaving in quite a normal manner so much so they just faded into the background right!!
Which rather makes a mockery of your assertion that most Indian men have no regard for women and are potential stalkers, eve teasers etc. etc. Or in the ascendancy as you stated

It was explained to you how the hotel issue had nothing to do with being female it happens to us guys all the time it's just the way it is but no your sticking to the idea that it was discrimination to you as women.

Again thousands of women cover India with the minimum of problems I know I talked to lots of them both in real life and on forums like this. Where the subject comes up with depressing frequency and always attracts exactly the same kind of reactionary one sided gobbly de gook that tries to define Indian men as repressed monsters who's only aim in life is to have their way with some young backpacker.
This problem exists it would be foolish of me to deny that but for every girl with a story there are a hundred like lotus blossom who see a different side on India and it's menfolk!!
These women travel with little more to report than being stared at which is I'm afraid a problem we all grapple with in India.

Have a look at Lotus blossoms posting there are few clues there as to where you might be misinterpreting things.

Sama

if anyone is misinterpreting, it's you. and frankly, your statement that I asserted "that most Indian men have no regard for women and are potential stalkers, eve teasers etc. etc." appalls me, because that's YOUR interpretation, not mine. I merely related two incidents, that I in fact, never called harrassment, discriminatory, or even "bad". They were merely experiences. Yeah, the hotel one made me angry, but ya know what?, it would piss me off in the US, also.

And as for my question (not a statement, by the way) about the feminine divine, etc., I recently read almost the exact same question in a yoga magazine (which I will try to find and post the article if I have not already recycled the mag) in a story about the treatment of women in India.

Again, I am not the poster who states that it is "extremely unpleasant living in urban India as an Indian woman", but I see that you have no problem whatsoever with that comment, and have no comment about this thread being started by a man about his observations. So if you really think that I am "not very in touch with India and Indians", so be it, because frankly, I don't care what you think about me, but I sure as hell am going to defend myself when I see anything I say being misinterpreted or wrongly presented by anyone.