What the...? Strange questions for India experts

kristinm · Apr 14th, 2008, 10:13

So do you think the little girl was most likely married?

Aishah · Apr 15th, 2008, 05:29

Not necessarily - lots of small girls like copying their mothers or older sisters. Maybe married, maybe not...

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 06:32

http://www.indiamike.com/photopost/s...5/limit/recent

Can anyone tell me what these guys might be doing - they were in the street in Ghanerao

machadinha · Apr 21st, 2008, 06:47

They're sharing a chillum methinks from the looks of it, and look slightly disturbed by the photographer, possibly because of it. If they were, they'd probably consider it innocent, but it's still something of a private affair unless you're invited to join in. Think someone sticking their lens out at you while having tea.

What do you think they were doing? I'm only asking so members can compare their takes on it; I'm not suggesting you should have known this, and I may very well be wrong.

(The pipe could have been filled with tobacco btw, I don't know the local intricacies of it. But that's a pipe and the thing on top is a glowing piece of charcoal if you ask me.)

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 06:53

That's what I thought - would it be opium or marijuana? It wasn't a back alley or anything- quite out in the open.. I wasn't there when he took the shot, but he usually asks or goes away if they say to he's not really a stealth photographer if you know what I mean. It could just be tobacco ... They do look a bit grumpy though.

machadinha · Apr 21st, 2008, 07:01

Tobacco mixed with either, more likely. (Well, hashish more likely than marihuana. Opium is quite acceptable in these parts, but it could be either. Or to locals anyway, please, let no tourist strike up the wrong ideas about this, and it's technically highly illegal. Sorry folks, the sixties are long over. Although not looking for it at all I'd be sometimes casually offered it by local oldies, the way you might be offered a cigarette. May be the only nice way to go about it if you ask me -- and may be what inspired all those legends to begin with.)

Again, they would not consider it wrong in any way. You just caught them in a private moment, it's not about what they were doing. It could have been sipping tea or eating chapatis or whatever. Moreover, it's not impossible to capture people with that look on their face -- it may be one of surprise just as well, or just the way they look especially at someone they consider an "outsider," they may as well have welcomed the pic, no one can tell just by the look of the picture.

It's why I don't do portraits however. I just don't have it in me. I know people who do try to establish a bond before pushing on though. Jorge here does amazing portraits (as do some others), I've been meaning to ask him how he gets as close, and I will one day.

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 07:08

They could just be grumpy old men.... JP is quite good at getting portraits.. I'm too busy chatting normally! So is it like a social ritual - sit around, have a chillum, pass the time of day? (Hmm sounds like a bunch of Uni students in Sydney!).

Would it be a precurser to a nap or just a dozy way to pass time? Interestingly in this village we saw no betel nut chewers - it was a very traditional village, and quite prosperous....

The tradition of using substances to aid relaxation or work is a very old one in India it seems... and seems to be confined to men? OR am I wrong?

machadinha · Apr 21st, 2008, 07:20

? I'm sorry, I don't understand your last questions. Based on what observations of yours?

Paan (betel) usage is also something very different again.

I'm not trying to get confrontational, I just don't understand what you mean. It's quite possible men partake in this more to the extent that men as in most parts of the world seem to have the upper hand yes (and then there's the issue of lower-class women often visibly doing the hard menial work in India as opposed to their male counterparts, but let's leave it to other existing threads); but beyond that this is probably so generalized as to practically be meaningless. Women (far from all of them, of course) across Asia chew paan, smoke opium, tobacco, etc.

And none of this is nor has traditionally been confined to India.

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 07:21

I think digital cameras really help the would-be portrait photographer, when you can show people their picture they seem to really love it and they become quite enthusiastic about having their portrait taken... then they love to see the pictures you have taken in their village or of their friends.. its a real ice breaker.

JP was offered a puff of the pipe on quite a few occasions.. I'm sure had he been on his own he would have happily joined in. Sadly I never was... being the woman in the group and all!

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by machadinha

? I'm sorry, I don't understand your last questions. Based on what observations of yours?

No I was actually wondering whether it was traditionally a male thing - and whether women might have other social rituals that they partake in together, or perhaps they also do - but more away from the public gaze... when we saw groups of women sitting around chatting it was usually in a house, whereas the men tended to be out in the street. I'm not sure how much is social and how much is tradition or ritual....

Only that we never saw women chewing betel nut, smoking anything (except beedis occasionally), drinking - except glamorous women in Mumbai and Delhi.. it always seemed to be the men who were partaking.... I guess its just not something women traditionally do... or not visibly?

I was wondering if the tradition of older village men sharing a chillum might be the reason they seemed to not suffer so much from arthritis or the pain that seems to afflict older people in the west... or maybe that could be a reason older people traditionally use opium - to ward off the pains of old age and aid sleep and digestion?

BTW - I don't consider it wrong either - I'm just interested in the use of substances like opium and hashish (or kava or betel nut or any of the other substances) in traditional ways in any society.. and how and why these traditions might arise and the taboos and rules that go with them. In many traditional societies women are not allowed to participate in rituals of this kind...there is also an interesting area between ritual/tradition/and social bonding - which is where these older guys in the photo seem to sit.... I think its a nice way for a group of old men to pass the time - cruising along, having a chat, watching the world go past...

They only let women into the public bar in Hotels in Australia in the 70s - before that they had to drink in the Ladies bar at the back, or better still not go to the pub at all!

Brisso · Apr 21st, 2008, 08:44

In many Asian societies opium smoking is confined to the elders who have made their economic contributions ... opium smoking or eating amongst the young is frowned upon ...

edwardseco · Apr 21st, 2008, 09:00

In my main Maharashtra village opium smoking on one day a year involved half the village. Now whether that means all males or is more gender even I do not know. Just don't exhale through the pipe..

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisso

In many Asian societies opium smoking is confined to the elders who have made their economic contributions ... opium smoking or eating amongst the young is frowned upon ...

Which is what made me muse on the medicinal properties of opium and whether, like many traditions, it has at least some basis in practicality...

Aishah · Apr 21st, 2008, 11:06

Mr K's mother who has very bad arthritis and is elderly takes tablets which Mr K calls 'opium'. They are from the medical store - so yes, obviously some sort of painkiller, opium based. As for women and men chewing betel etc. There's no differentiation, I know groups of women who sit around dishing out the paan type powder and chewing on that. or their husbands bring back the paan in the leaf variety for them. They can also chomp away on gutka most of the day if they choose. One of the boys or their husbands will buy it for them. Don't know about smoking chillums however, maybe they do in their women's circle. You just can't generalize about these things - some do, some don't.

kristinm · Apr 21st, 2008, 11:20

So except for the Bishnoi - its not a ritual as such with rules about who can and can't, just a way of chilling out? And also - you mention the women's circle, the impression I got was that groups of people relaxed men with men and women with women... I didn't really see the women sitting around with the men, except the roadworkers on their break?

Apr 15th, 2008, 05:29	#62
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 5,036	Not necessarily - lots of small girls like copying their mothers or older sisters. Maybe married, maybe not... __________________ "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards."

Apr 21st, 2008, 06:47	#64
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 10,584	They're sharing a chillum methinks from the looks of it, and look slightly disturbed by the photographer, possibly because of it. If they were, they'd probably consider it innocent, but it's still something of a private affair unless you're invited to join in. Think someone sticking their lens out at you while having tea. What do you think they were doing? I'm only asking so members can compare their takes on it; I'm not suggesting you should have known this, and I may very well be wrong. (The pipe could have been filled with tobacco btw, I don't know the local intricacies of it. But that's a pipe and the thing on top is a glowing piece of charcoal if you ask me.) __________________ Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links

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Apr 14th, 2008, 10:13	#61
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,483	So do you think the little girl was most likely married?

Apr 21st, 2008, 06:32	#63
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,483	http://www.indiamike.com/photopost/s...5/limit/recent Can anyone tell me what these guys might be doing - they were in the street in Ghanerao

Apr 21st, 2008, 06:53	#65
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,483	That's what I thought - would it be opium or marijuana? It wasn't a back alley or anything- quite out in the open.. I wasn't there when he took the shot, but he usually asks or goes away if they say to he's not really a stealth photographer if you know what I mean. It could just be tobacco ... They do look a bit grumpy though.

Apr 21st, 2008, 07:01	#66
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 10,584	Tobacco mixed with either, more likely. (Well, hashish more likely than marihuana. Opium is quite acceptable in these parts, but it could be either. Or to locals anyway, please, let no tourist strike up the wrong ideas about this, and it's technically highly illegal. Sorry folks, the sixties are long over. Although not looking for it at all I'd be sometimes casually offered it by local oldies, the way you might be offered a cigarette. May be the only nice way to go about it if you ask me -- and may be what inspired all those legends to begin with.) Again, they would not consider it wrong in any way. You just caught them in a private moment, it's not about what they were doing. It could have been sipping tea or eating chapatis or whatever. Moreover, it's not impossible to capture people with that look on their face -- it may be one of surprise just as well, or just the way they look especially at someone they consider an "outsider," they may as well have welcomed the pic, no one can tell just by the look of the picture. It's why I don't do portraits however. I just don't have it in me. I know people who do try to establish a bond before pushing on though. Jorge here does amazing portraits (as do some others), I've been meaning to ask him how he gets as close, and I will one day.

Apr 21st, 2008, 07:08	#67
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,483	They could just be grumpy old men.... JP is quite good at getting portraits.. I'm too busy chatting normally! So is it like a social ritual - sit around, have a chillum, pass the time of day? (Hmm sounds like a bunch of Uni students in Sydney!). Would it be a precurser to a nap or just a dozy way to pass time? Interestingly in this village we saw no betel nut chewers - it was a very traditional village, and quite prosperous.... The tradition of using substances to aid relaxation or work is a very old one in India it seems... and seems to be confined to men? OR am I wrong?

Apr 21st, 2008, 07:20	#68
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 10,584	? I'm sorry, I don't understand your last questions. Based on what observations of yours? Paan (betel) usage is also something very different again. I'm not trying to get confrontational, I just don't understand what you mean. It's quite possible men partake in this more to the extent that men as in most parts of the world seem to have the upper hand yes (and then there's the issue of lower-class women often visibly doing the hard menial work in India as opposed to their male counterparts, but let's leave it to other existing threads); but beyond that this is probably so generalized as to practically be meaningless. Women (far from all of them, of course) across Asia chew paan, smoke opium, tobacco, etc. And none of this is nor has traditionally been confined to India.

Apr 21st, 2008, 07:21	#69
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,483	I think digital cameras really help the would-be portrait photographer, when you can show people their picture they seem to really love it and they become quite enthusiastic about having their portrait taken... then they love to see the pictures you have taken in their village or of their friends.. its a real ice breaker. JP was offered a puff of the pipe on quite a few occasions.. I'm sure had he been on his own he would have happily joined in. Sadly I never was... being the woman in the group and all!

Apr 21st, 2008, 08:44	#71
Brisso Specialist muddler Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Brisbane Posts: 533	In many Asian societies opium smoking is confined to the elders who have made their economic contributions ... opium smoking or eating amongst the young is frowned upon ...

Apr 21st, 2008, 09:00	#72
edwardseco Maha Guru Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Land that shakes and bakes. Posts: 3,938	In my main Maharashtra village opium smoking on one day a year involved half the village. Now whether that means all males or is more gender even I do not know. Just don't exhale through the pipe..

Apr 21st, 2008, 11:06	#74
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 5,036	Mr K's mother who has very bad arthritis and is elderly takes tablets which Mr K calls 'opium'. They are from the medical store - so yes, obviously some sort of painkiller, opium based. As for women and men chewing betel etc. There's no differentiation, I know groups of women who sit around dishing out the paan type powder and chewing on that. or their husbands bring back the paan in the leaf variety for them. They can also chomp away on gutka most of the day if they choose. One of the boys or their husbands will buy it for them. Don't know about smoking chillums however, maybe they do in their women's circle. You just can't generalize about these things - some do, some don't.

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Apr 21st, 2008, 11:20	#75
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,483	So except for the Bishnoi - its not a ritual as such with rules about who can and can't, just a way of chilling out? And also - you mention the women's circle, the impression I got was that groups of people relaxed men with men and women with women... I didn't really see the women sitting around with the men, except the roadworkers on their break?