Blondes- to dye or not to dye? & women's wear, women's safety etc

the opoponax

While there are parts of America where you can definitely feel out of place because of the way you look, I think your earlier post was spot-on in a very specific way.

While I might get some stares as the only goy walking through a Hasidic neighborhood on Shabbos, the specific reaction is going to be different. Because Indian culture is different. It's not just a matter of not blending in - it's the specific baggage ascribed to my particular mode of not blending in.

So, as Nick says, c'est la vie. What can you do about it but try to get over it and move on? That's about all you can do about this sort of thing in the states, anyway.

machadinha

Well, yes. About all that physical closeness: Indians will stare at you (not considered rude here), brush up against you (pretty unavoidable, with all those people around), share a 4-person train seat with you all 16 of them (exaggerating -- almost ), and love to be chatty to you. I'm very sure as a (Western) woman this will all be intimidating and hard to interpret. (It's intimidating and confusing to men even, but of course we don't have to be so frikking worried about our physical integrity all the time.) But I guess in order to get around and enjoy yourself there, it will be essential to learn to distinguish between all that, and actual harassment (not at all all that common, I think, although you get your good and your bad areas and your rowdy youngsters and horny idiots like anywhere else), or you will feel harassed all day long, and I suspect those women who do are having trouble dealing with this. (There is of course also something about the more you expect trouble, the more likely you'll be to attract it, if only just because you'll be more aware of it. See! He did touch me!)

Another thing is (and this isn't against OP, just another of those general observations) I often honestly wonder why people would want to go to a place they expect to be all hassle and danger. And in all kindness I often wonder if some of them would have ever materialized that wish without the internet. Before the web, it would just take some more personal research and effort, reading guidebooks, speaking (and in the flesh) to folks who had been there, and so on. The ones with the wildest expectations and the least feasible itineraries are also typically the ones never to call back in to let you know how they fared, so you just never know how and if they managed. Yes, maybe all of North India can be done in 12 days, who knows, please let us know so we can stop cautioning others against it.

A friend of mine btw will often lament how travelers apparently would like an India minus the Indians. I think that's a little harsh on us pale-faceds, but I understand his frustration.

Finally, of course your personal backgrounds and circumstances and coping mechanisms will come into play and be called on. I was brought up with a lot of traveling, lived for a while in a so-called developing nation (we thought it quite developed, but oh well), have had to get used to being treated as a weirdo and generally maltreated by some because of my looks, and have lived a good deal of my life in highly multi-ethnic areas. So I suppose all that helps to be not so afraid of the world and be able to adjust, and maybe it's all easy for me to say. But then they're all just learning processes, and we all gotta start somewhere. Most of the world really isn't all that scary and dangerous, or at least not in my experience. It just takes some forgetting about yourself and your own concerns and actually looking at, and interacting with, that world.

(Which is not to say I'd appreciate having my bum pinched while I was it.)

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Nick-H

buses, commuter trains, the busiest of the shopping streets at festival time: these are a few situations in which full-body contact might be inevitable, plus a few I've forgotten or never experienced. Otherwise, the place is really not that crowded.

I'm afraid it has to be said that, when a man "brushes up against" a woman, even in those circumstances, it was probably not accidental.

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Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

machadinha

Yes, you are of course right. I was just thinking for instance of some women high on adrenalin I met on the streets of Kolkata, who seemed to have trouble with the fact that there were, well, a lot of men around, who or so they claimed were feeling them up all the time.

All I can say is the woman I was walking around with when we met them (and yes, she would also go for walks on her own) didn't seem to have too much trouble with it. Maybe something about the light scarf she had chosen to wear around her neck, and her upper arms being covered. Or maybe just her general demeanor. She traveled on by herself for months after that and had a very good time.

That's hardly empirical evidence, I know, it's just another one of those observations. ps The north and especially the big city centers where tourists tend to congregate is really really crowded, Nick, that's one of the reasons why people claim the south is more easy. But I agree brushing up would probably and preferably be avoided, I was just sketching the general situation. Being sandwiched in a bus there and taking turns breathing it would be hard to avoid though.

Nick-H

Well, they say that just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that the world isn't out to get you --- but I think what you are getting at is that spending too much time thinking about problems can lead to seeing them when they don't actually exist. Or some permutation of those, or similar words.

the opoponax

And this is the sort of thing I think is especially hard if you come from a place where you expect NEVER to mingle closely with outsiders, and where anyone different is not to be trusted. Because, yeah, in my everyday life living in a major city, I know the feeling of being stared at (though I realize that "I ain't seen nothin' yet"). I know the feeling of being in a thick crowd on the street or a packed train, and the inevitable bodily contact that comes with it. OK, so I'm not so used to having 3 people sitting on my lap, but you did say that was an exaggeration!

One thing I think I'm going to have to realize is that when you live in a city it becomes so much easier to figure out how to escape the crowds than it ever is when you're a visitor. I don't think New York is crowded because I avoid the really crowded areas. Which I won't necessarily be able to do in the big Indian cities I'll be visiting.

machadinha

I think you're spot-on (and I'm enjoying this thread. Seriously, it's a good debate on an issue that comes up so often, with interesting angles all around.)

I found "aloneness" in India is a state of mind before anything else. Because you rarely will be (and then when you are, you can suddenly be very alone). So you need to find that spot somewhere in yourself. I think that's how many Indians deal with it (but I'll gladly stand corrected).

And ps in all of this, do remember we'll all have our own experiences and approaches and so on. Even different travel modes in India will lead to vastly different experiences. And pps yes, where I live one tends to avoid the touristed overcrowded and ridiculously priced city center unless one has some business there. Which as a tourist is of course where you'll end up. That's what tourism is all about

Nick-H

Reminds me of a line in a spoof job advert I wrote once for a vacancy in my then office...

machadinha

...

brownboy66

I agree! Haven't added anything else since being the first to post a reply waaaaaaay back on page one - but so far the thread has touched on things like:

1) biased advice to female travellers (and using this to subjugate women)
2) deliberate misinformation and scaremongering about travel to india,
3) western versus non-western notions of space, intimacy,
4) Blending in versus standing out

and so on. Very good discussion - which hopefully should result in Onceuponly feeling much better and having a great trip to india.

the opoponax

Oh god let's not even get started on Indians, Americans and "notions of space".

Let's just say my world was pretty well rocked when other Bollywood crew members actually expected to get to eat from my plate...

karuna

One last thing on this if I may. When I took my first tour in India, I boughta guidebook and read all the advice, including the "disabled travellers" part. I worked, then as now, in a non-profit organisation of and for disabled people (not the same job- I quit, went back to India, came back home and got a new disability job). I found the book's advice to disabled travellers pretty poor. The tone and some of the language used was offensive by current standards of disability equality; it focused almost solely on the "cliched" image of diability- i.e. mobility difficulties- talking about steps and wheelchairs etc- and virtually ignored Deaf people, visually impaired people, people with hidden conditions (disabetes, epilepsy etc) and all the other myriad conditions that travellers can and do have. Which is fine, if you are clear about it, by calling it "Travellers with Mobility Difficulties". They also focused a lot on obstacles, how hard it can be- and not really on solutions, with very little about sources of support or disability organisations in India itself.

I rewrote it, with comments, and sent it in to them (and they offered me a free book like they do with "useful" submissions which was nice, but not as good as a full time job writing for them!). Whether they actually take my comments on board or not remains to be seen.

Was this biased advice deliberately used to subjugate disabled people? No.
Was the guidebook's advice deliberate scaremongering about disabled people travelling in India? No.

It was well-meant, but unfortunate advice given by people with lots of experience of India, but little experience of disability.

I believe the same goes for fatuous advice/warnings to women. There is both truth and a desire to assist at the heart of it; it's just delivered very, very badly.

Well that's kind of what the hair dye idea is I suppose, but really I've come to the conclusion that for me, personally, although I feel less scrutinised and more relaxed wearing a punjabi suit, it doesn't really make me stand out any less. I just feel better in my head, because the worries about whether I'm wearing the right thing are removed. Which is what Nick was saying about making up the problems in your own head. I don't blame faulty advice for that- I'm a nervous, worrying person and I'd worry about it anyway. I'd rather be well-advised.

The personal space thing I never even noticed (other than staring). When I was "groped" it wasn't in crowds, so it was pretty easy to be sure what was going on!

Anyway, that's my feeling for what it's worth.

machadinha

Well, yes again, good point. I've caught myself giving some general advice to well-established members here, people you think you've gotten to "know," only to be told that yes that's nice but they couldn't do this or that because their hands or feet or eyes or ears or kidneys or whatever don't function that way. Painful really.

It's so easy to overlook all that stuff if you don't have to deal with it yourself, and in the end you just can't tell who's at the other end of that line. Makes you wonder sometimes what good all that advice is anyway. Highly generalized and highly personal at the same time in any case, that's for sure.

the opoponax

Using what I know about the way the world works everywhere else, I just don't think there's really any way to "blend in". I mean, I have dark hair, and my complexion will be darker than many a Bollywood starlet after a week on the beach (yay, Native American roots!), and I'll probably buy a Salwar Kameez or two, etc. etc. But there's just no way anyone's going to think I'm Indian. I'll look different, act different, talk different, wear my hair different, have a different brand of shoe, be fatter, taller, whatever. I'll have a different way of carrying myself. I'm sure I'll do whatever the Gora tourist equivalent of staring up at all the skyscrapers is. (being all giddy about the Holy Cows?)

I can tell whether someone is a New Yorker or not at 20 paces. I can tell the difference quite easily between an Irish-American and somebody on vacation from Dublin. The least I can do is give Indians the same credit.

karuna

I actually got worse about that as time went on. I think I must have started off trying to be super-cool about it, but actually I love animals. Eventually I had to start pointing them out with excited squeals. "Ooh, look, that one's old," or "Look, a BABY cow!". Such is my nature.

Fat tourist in a punjabi suit squealing at cows. Why would anybody stare at me??