Blondes- to dye or not to dye? & women's wear, women's safety etc

kristinm · Feb 11th, 2008, 05:40

Don't worry - one is always aware of local sensitivities here! I was more thinking it would be a good idea all round to reclaim the symbol... you know, kind of like gays reclaimed the word 'queer' and turned it into a positive label. It was there for thousands of years before Mr H hijacked it.. might help to counter the recent rise of neo-nazism in some parts of Europe if they can no longer use that symbol as a symbol of hate becuase it is universally known as a symbol of welcome?

machadinha · Feb 11th, 2008, 05:46

Oh I don't know. Just thought I'd kindly point out that to organize a movement to reclaim the symbol may not be a priority on the list of grievances to some of the people you were referring to, I suspect they have a thing or two else to (still) keep them busy. Also with reference to can we wear certain exotically printed material. As for the other peeps, I reckon they would (and they do) find other symbols to rally around, it wouldn't change anything (and in that sense I suppose it doesn't matter, but tell it to the survivors and their heirs. All in a European context of course, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the swastika as such, and this discussion has been carried several times before. It's also not even archetypically Indian in that way, it's a universal symbol rather.) There was nothing wrong with Runes originally, however that doesn't mean I'm not naturally suspicious of people carrying them around for tattoos. Nor do I sympathize much with those who do so and whine that they mean well and are merely misunderstood. (That doesn't mean I'd mistake you in your dress, but I think you'll catch my drift. And what does it really mean to be able to wear such things, in the West, in the light of what has transpired, and that should put us all to shame still. To leave one's dress -- or my religious posters, or whatever -- in the closet [or to not opt for that tattoo] seems hardly worthy of being called a sacrifice by comparison.)

Anyway this was about women and their ways on the road in India right? Better we stick to that I guess.

kristinm · Feb 11th, 2008, 06:14

Too true - they will always find something... the Union Jack seemed to serve quite well as a hate symbol when I lived in the UK if I remember correctly and here the racists literally wrap themselves in the Australian flag.... Doesn't solve the problem of my fabric though!!!!!!! I wouldn't wear it - and I agree about the tattoos etc...

Like the English language though, I guess the corruption of any type of historical usage bothers me.. I'm a bit of a pedant in that way. I feel you need to look at things in the context of when and where they were made... fabric in India, tiles pre-Hitler etc and value them within that context... Look at all the Zenyanas we saw in all the palaces in India - clearly in the modern context a violation of women's rights to run a household that way in modern India.. but priceless parts of history in their own context nonetheless and instructive in terms of the hundreds of years of history behind those women you still see in purdah in India the difficulties and issues surrounding India's move towards modernity and in many ways to our discussion of what is appropriate to wear and do as visitors to India.

Aishah · Feb 11th, 2008, 08:09

One of my pet themes running through here - 'common usage' and what changes through time and history. I'm on the side of 'common usage' probably because it's simpler to go with the flow.. Anyway, Kistinm, I'll have some room if you want to PM for anything! Since I'm heading to winter the bags will be more heavy than summer travelling but I'm aiming to prune to the minimum this time. I've always tended to overpack and now I'm sick of big bags and want to keep it simple. Reckon I'll manage!

giripriya · Feb 22nd, 2008, 22:42

Sorry I missed this thread before, honestly have not been frequenting IM as often as before (too busy getting married in Nepal....

). I wanted to get in my 2 Rs about SKs and my experience wearing them. I am a Euro-American woman and have been wearing them exclusively since 2001. I am brunette with long hair which I wear braided in the traditional style and sometimes people ask me if I am from N. India, Afghanistan, etc. so maybe that makes the difference. I first started wearing them in Nepal when I made my first visit in '01 and at first I felt conspicuous but eventually felt very natural wearing them, even at work when I came back to the US- I am a college librarian so the atmosphere here is very liberal and people even say to me 'I love your outfits'. I can't even remember the last time I wore Western dress. I live in Queens and a lot of ladies in my area also wear SK so I definitely do not stand out too much. I don't think there is any other style of clothing which is more practical, attractive and versatile. It doesn't take me long to get dressed in the morning because everything is already put together and I don't end up with that odd skirt or blouse that doesn't go with anything else in my closet.

I think people think my wearing SK is normal because by now I am comfortable wearing them, if I were insecure maybe then it would look as if I were wearing a costume through my attitude. Any comments I have gotten have been polite and positive whether here or in Nepal where I was asked 'why are you wearing 'Nepali dress'?

Sorry to chime in so late at the party - carry on....

Nick-H · Feb 23rd, 2008, 00:41

Gosh! An on-topic post in this thread?

Seriously... your post reinforces my assertion that Salwar Kameez, apart from some ways of wearing the duppatta, is really quite culture-neutral.

Aishah · Feb 23rd, 2008, 22:33

Exactly, Nick. Nice post Giripriya and I couldn't agree more with what you say. However, times are changing and YogaGal is now telling us that skimpier tops and jeans, are starting to be more prevalent worn by Indian women these days. I know in the cities, jeans and tops are favoured by the young girls but you don't see this so much around here. As I've often said we are rather backward in this area. I think I'll be sticking to the salwar kameez for a long time, it's so comfortable and hides all your bad points! And can be stylish too.

giripriya · Feb 27th, 2008, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

Gosh! An on-topic post in this thread?

Seriously... your post reinforces my assertion that Salwar Kameez, apart from some ways of wearing the duppatta, is really quite culture-neutral.

I sell some SK sets on eBay and I would say maybe 75-80% of the buyers do not have Indian names and do not live in areas like NYC, SF etc with high desi populations, so maybe it will become a trend??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aishah

Exactly, Nick. Nice post Giripriya and I couldn't agree more with what you say. However, times are changing and YogaGal is now telling us that skimpier tops and jeans, are starting to be more prevalent worn by Indian women these days. I know in the cities, jeans and tops are favoured by the young girls but you don't see this so much around here. As I've often said we are rather backward in this area. I think I'll be sticking to the salwar kameez for a long time, it's so comfortable and hides all your bad points! And can be stylish too.

Yes, you see this in Nepal too, at least in KTM (so much for Nepal being more traditional somehow LOL...

) My younger SIL loves her jeans and short sleeve tops, even wore jeans to my wedding when all the other women were wearing sarees.

A woman in a tank or spaghetti strap top definitely does still stand out in KTM though, whether Western or Nepali.

Aishah · Feb 27th, 2008, 21:48

Noticed this when I was in Kathmandu in May - in fact I thought young Nepalese women were very modern, and it was reflected by a lot of the clothing being sold in shops there. I could have been back in Oz or NZ I thought. Although not much of the 'daringly' modern look as you hinted (spaghetti straps etc.) My daughter didn't look out of place in her jeans and t-shirts.

karuna · Feb 28th, 2008, 22:43

ON topic: I wore my pair of bright pink baggy salwar to the fish and chip shop the other day. It was dark, so I didn't feel completely silly. Then I saw a woman at Paddington station in a sort of multi-coloured multi-layered mop, with bright blue tights and a turban, and a girl wearing a tutu over her trousers. So really I think I might venture out in SK and see what happens, safe in the knowledge that there are at least two people in the world whose outfits are drawing more attention than mine!

OFF topic(ish): As this is the semi-official Shahrukh Khan appreciation thread, I feel I have to say that he was on telly last night, on some BBC show called Desi Connection or Desi something. It was a little fluffy piece on a group of non-Indian women in London who get together to watch Bollywood movies, and they all love SRK. And they got to meet him. This is not fair! It isn't fair!

Actually they all looked rather uncomfortable, SRK included. They all just fell silent the minute they entered the room and just gawped at him. I like to think I'd have smiled charmingly and asked a series of witty and insightful questions that would delight him into asking me to come for a drink later.

Why are you laughing?

Nick-H · Feb 28th, 2008, 22:50

I was at a music magazine launch today. There was a mixture of ages and we were not the only 'oldies' there, although I was the only man wearing kurta and vesti (and Mrs N was the only one with jasmine in her hair (and it came from our garden)).

There were plenty of bear arms and shoulders, and one or two lowish necklines. No bare legs, though.

Sama · Feb 28th, 2008, 22:59

that's why I'm saying no more SKs for me in chennai -- I'm going mod, man!

(or is that mad?...

)

machadinha · Feb 28th, 2008, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

There were plenty of bear arms and shoulders

...

Where's that typo of the week thread anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by YogaGal

I'm going mod, man!

Even better! The mod rules!!

Rasika · Feb 28th, 2008, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

(and Mrs N was the only one with jasmine in her hair (and it came from our garden)).

Forget the dosa thread: *this* makes me really miss India - it's so lovely putting jasmine in one's hair...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick-H

There were plenty of bear arms and shoulders,

machadinha beat me to it...

Nick-H · Feb 28th, 2008, 23:26

I think I must be thinking of The Right to Arm Bears!

Feb 11th, 2008, 05:46	#722
machadinha Not Your Guru Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: yörp Posts: 9,369	Oh I don't know. Just thought I'd kindly point out that to organize a movement to reclaim the symbol may not be a priority on the list of grievances to some of the people you were referring to, I suspect they have a thing or two else to (still) keep them busy. Also with reference to can we wear certain exotically printed material. As for the other peeps, I reckon they would (and they do) find other symbols to rally around, it wouldn't change anything (and in that sense I suppose it doesn't matter, but tell it to the survivors and their heirs. All in a European context of course, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the swastika as such, and this discussion has been carried several times before. It's also not even archetypically Indian in that way, it's a universal symbol rather.) There was nothing wrong with Runes originally, however that doesn't mean I'm not naturally suspicious of people carrying them around for tattoos. Nor do I sympathize much with those who do so and whine that they mean well and are merely misunderstood. (That doesn't mean I'd mistake you in your dress, but I think you'll catch my drift. And what does it really mean to be able to wear such things, in the West, in the light of what has transpired, and that should put us all to shame still. To leave one's dress -- or my religious posters, or whatever -- in the closet [or to not opt for that tattoo] seems hardly worthy of being called a sacrifice by comparison.) Anyway this was about women and their ways on the road in India right? Better we stick to that I guess. __________________ Reading tips, all picked up at IndiaMike : INDAX's A Comprehensive Guide To India / Dinoj Surendran's Desi Humor / ITHVC on Culture Shock & Travel Health / JetLag Travel Guides For the Undiscerning Traveller / India Travel Links

Feb 11th, 2008, 08:09	#724
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 3,715	One of my pet themes running through here - 'common usage' and what changes through time and history. I'm on the side of 'common usage' probably because it's simpler to go with the flow.. Anyway, Kistinm, I'll have some room if you want to PM for anything! Since I'm heading to winter the bags will be more heavy than summer travelling but I'm aiming to prune to the minimum this time. I've always tended to overpack and now I'm sick of big bags and want to keep it simple. Reckon I'll manage! __________________ "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards."

Feb 22nd, 2008, 22:42	#725
giripriya Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NYC, dreaming of the Himalaya Posts: 69	Sorry I missed this thread before, honestly have not been frequenting IM as often as before (too busy getting married in Nepal.... ). I wanted to get in my 2 Rs about SKs and my experience wearing them. I am a Euro-American woman and have been wearing them exclusively since 2001. I am brunette with long hair which I wear braided in the traditional style and sometimes people ask me if I am from N. India, Afghanistan, etc. so maybe that makes the difference. I first started wearing them in Nepal when I made my first visit in '01 and at first I felt conspicuous but eventually felt very natural wearing them, even at work when I came back to the US- I am a college librarian so the atmosphere here is very liberal and people even say to me 'I love your outfits'. I can't even remember the last time I wore Western dress. I live in Queens and a lot of ladies in my area also wear SK so I definitely do not stand out too much. I don't think there is any other style of clothing which is more practical, attractive and versatile. It doesn't take me long to get dressed in the morning because everything is already put together and I don't end up with that odd skirt or blouse that doesn't go with anything else in my closet. I think people think my wearing SK is normal because by now I am comfortable wearing them, if I were insecure maybe then it would look as if I were wearing a costume through my attitude. Any comments I have gotten have been polite and positive whether here or in Nepal where I was asked 'why are you wearing 'Nepali dress'? Sorry to chime in so late at the party - carry on.... __________________ Q: Ke garne? A: Dal bhat khanne, maaya garne, sutne!

Feb 23rd, 2008, 00:41	#726
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 24,468	Gosh! An on-topic post in this thread? Seriously... your post reinforces my assertion that Salwar Kameez, apart from some ways of wearing the duppatta, is really quite culture-neutral. __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Feb 28th, 2008, 22:59	#732
Sama a pain in the asana Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: the India inside my heart Posts: 5,046	that's why I'm saying no more SKs for me in chennai -- I'm going mod, man! (or is that mad?... ) __________________ *My India, 2005-2008*

Feb 11th, 2008, 05:40	#721
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,280	Don't worry - one is always aware of local sensitivities here! I was more thinking it would be a good idea all round to reclaim the symbol... you know, kind of like gays reclaimed the word 'queer' and turned it into a positive label. It was there for thousands of years before Mr H hijacked it.. might help to counter the recent rise of neo-nazism in some parts of Europe if they can no longer use that symbol as a symbol of hate becuase it is universally known as a symbol of welcome?

Feb 11th, 2008, 06:14	#723
kristinm Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Beautiful Bondi (not Bundi!) Posts: 1,280	Too true - they will always find something... the Union Jack seemed to serve quite well as a hate symbol when I lived in the UK if I remember correctly and here the racists literally wrap themselves in the Australian flag.... Doesn't solve the problem of my fabric though!!!!!!! I wouldn't wear it - and I agree about the tattoos etc... Like the English language though, I guess the corruption of any type of historical usage bothers me.. I'm a bit of a pedant in that way. I feel you need to look at things in the context of when and where they were made... fabric in India, tiles pre-Hitler etc and value them within that context... Look at all the Zenyanas we saw in all the palaces in India - clearly in the modern context a violation of women's rights to run a household that way in modern India.. but priceless parts of history in their own context nonetheless and instructive in terms of the hundreds of years of history behind those women you still see in purdah in India the difficulties and issues surrounding India's move towards modernity and in many ways to our discussion of what is appropriate to wear and do as visitors to India.

Feb 23rd, 2008, 22:33	#727
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 3,715	Exactly, Nick. Nice post Giripriya and I couldn't agree more with what you say. However, times are changing and YogaGal is now telling us that skimpier tops and jeans, are starting to be more prevalent worn by Indian women these days. I know in the cities, jeans and tops are favoured by the young girls but you don't see this so much around here. As I've often said we are rather backward in this area. I think I'll be sticking to the salwar kameez for a long time, it's so comfortable and hides all your bad points! And can be stylish too.

Feb 27th, 2008, 21:48	#729
Aishah She-who-must-be-obeyed! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Jaisalmer Posts: 3,715	Noticed this when I was in Kathmandu in May - in fact I thought young Nepalese women were very modern, and it was reflected by a lot of the clothing being sold in shops there. I could have been back in Oz or NZ I thought. Although not much of the 'daringly' modern look as you hinted (spaghetti straps etc.) My daughter didn't look out of place in her jeans and t-shirts.

Feb 28th, 2008, 22:43	#730
karuna Ben Goldacre's B*tch Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: UK Posts: 922	ON topic: I wore my pair of bright pink baggy salwar to the fish and chip shop the other day. It was dark, so I didn't feel completely silly. Then I saw a woman at Paddington station in a sort of multi-coloured multi-layered mop, with bright blue tights and a turban, and a girl wearing a tutu over her trousers. So really I think I might venture out in SK and see what happens, safe in the knowledge that there are at least two people in the world whose outfits are drawing more attention than mine! OFF topic(ish): As this is the semi-official Shahrukh Khan appreciation thread, I feel I have to say that he was on telly last night, on some BBC show called Desi Connection or Desi something. It was a little fluffy piece on a group of non-Indian women in London who get together to watch Bollywood movies, and they all love SRK. And they got to meet him. This is not fair! It isn't fair! Actually they all looked rather uncomfortable, SRK included. They all just fell silent the minute they entered the room and just gawped at him. I like to think I'd have smiled charmingly and asked a series of witty and insightful questions that would delight him into asking me to come for a drink later. Why are you laughing?

Feb 28th, 2008, 22:50	#731
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 24,468	I was at a music magazine launch today. There was a mixture of ages and we were not the only 'oldies' there, although I was the only man wearing kurta and vesti (and Mrs N was the only one with jasmine in her hair (and it came from our garden)). There were plenty of bear arms and shoulders, and one or two lowish necklines. No bare legs, though.

Feb 28th, 2008, 23:26	#735
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 24,468	I think I must be thinking of The Right to Arm Bears!

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