Blondes- to dye or not to dye? & women's wear, women's safety etc

Nick-H · Dec 10th, 2007, 21:56

It is true that there are different perspectives. India to the visitor is a different place to India to the resident.

Even though we are both foreign residents, Aishah probably has different views to mine, having been here longer, not to mention the very large number of miles between us.

India to the born, native Indian probably looks like yet another country, and I have heard several Indians talk about how their experiences outside India have given them a different view of their own country.

All this is partly to do with with nature of life; partly to do with the nature of India.

It can be a very dangerous place; its politics I find utterly depressing. I've been sadly disillusioned by the reality behind the welcoming smiles of several of the families that I know. Women are subject to abuse at home, in the street, on the buses, whatever. I know my wife would never sit next to s unknown man on a bus, and I know that she would expect some sort, albeit relatively trivial, unwelcome contact aboard a crowded bus.

Hey! They regularly arrest guys on London's underground railway who make a speciality of putting mirrors on their shoes to look... Oh, never mind.

Within the limits of my experience, I think I have a fairly un-rosy view of India!

the opoponax · Dec 10th, 2007, 21:58

Quote:

I am yet to meet even one female from ages 15-40 who has not had this happen to them in India.

Funny, I've yet to meet even one female from ages 15-40 who has not been sexually harassed ANYWHERE.

I was leered at, catcalled, groped, etc. all the time in school growing up. Should I not have pursued an education?

Living in the city, I know I'm constantly at risk of some sort of harassment. Should I move back to the country at the expense of my job, my friends, my home, my life?

I've been on dates where men have gotten a little too fresh for my taste (way beyond anything likely to happen in India, in fact) -- should I become a nun?

I've had male friends pull the same things (they weren't friends after that, obviously) -- should I never speak to men outside my family, for fear of some sort of sexual abuse?

What's next, a burqa?

Sama · Dec 10th, 2007, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by the opoponax

Funny, I've yet to meet even one female from ages 15-40 who has not been sexually harassed ANYWHERE.

exactly! and I also agreed with you about being groped on NY subways.

I could tell stories that would curl your hair, or uncurl it, as the case may be. so when I read stories here, it just rolls off my back.

as nick says about the mirrors, they arrest guys here in white bread upper middle class suburbia that use their cell phones in the same way.

so do these incidents define women? or do women allow themselves to be defined by these incidents? as opoponax says, we're supposed to wear burqas, not go out, not ride the bus, not do whatever, all because of the actions of men?

screw that.

capt_mahajan · Dec 10th, 2007, 22:13

err, some men, please

PeakXV · Dec 10th, 2007, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by the opoponax

I've been on dates where men have gotten a little too fresh for my taste (way beyond anything likely to happen in India, in fact) --

That's an unsafe assumption & not a practical frame-of-mind to recommend to anybody. And I'm quite sure any Indian will tell you that simply is not a wise postulate/template to assume/follow in India .... or foreign travel anywhere for that matter.

Sama · Dec 10th, 2007, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by capt_mahajan

err, some men, please

yes, you're right! SOME MEN! my bad, capt!

sorry! I thought I was back on the picket lines there for a minute....

Mehndi Masala · Dec 10th, 2007, 22:59

India is truly a place of extremes but I went to a movie in Mumbai and sat with a man on my side that was no relation to me and saw none of this behaviour at all. Does it happen? Sure..probably..I've seen a couple in Canada doing ...ummm...something that should be done in private. I have been groped in my home country of Canada. I have friends that live in India. Is it perfect? Not even close. BUT that being said, where is? Is where you live Utopia? How do we all get tickets??? What is the immigration policy?

I'm not saying that you don't have valid experiences or that these things don't happen, but to be SO negative and make it sound like it happened EVERYWHERE at ALL TIMES...uhhh...bikini on the bus? Hyper-sensitive or parinoid? I'm not sure...but it sure wasn't my experience or anyone I know.

I also TOTALLY disagree with the idea that IM is nothing but 'rosy glasses' blissninnies. I was prepared for the worst as well as the positives. I was braced for all manner of good AND bad thanks to IM warnings. I am grateful that most never happened but I was aware that many things could go horribly wrong and hints on how to deal with it from bedbugs, dirty rooms, rip off cabs, physical danger or discomfort, etc.

I think everyone here simply loves Mother India for all her warts, wrinkles, stinky moments, temper tantrums and beauty.
For all her flaws (and NO ONE here says there are no flaws) we love her anyways.

Just my two cents..ya get what you paid for.

Kim

shashank.aggarwal · Dec 10th, 2007, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by YogaGal

those are extremes and the truth always lies somewhere in the middle.

Very well said !! Exactly my thoughts, however you have given words to the same.

the opoponax · Dec 11th, 2007, 00:13

Quote:

That's an unsafe assumption

I would hope most women traveling to India do not go with the assumption that they are going to be coerced into sex.

Not to get too personal about this sort of thing.

PeakXV · Dec 11th, 2007, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by the opoponax

I would hope most women traveling to India do not go with the assumption that they are going to be coerced into sex.

I would hope not either but I would also hope that they do not go with the assumption that the potential for someone 'getting a little to fresh' on a date is an impossibility, guaranteed not to happen, or have odds much different than the country/region that they are from.

dzibead · Dec 11th, 2007, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeakXV

I would hope not either but I would also hope that they do not go with the assumption that the potential for someone 'getting a little to fresh' on a date is an impossibility, guaranteed not to happen, or have odds much different than the country/region that they are from.

I suspect that most women travelers to India don't go with the expectation that they'll be "dating" at all.

Nick-H · Dec 11th, 2007, 01:15

Indeed.

In fact some of our more controversial threads in the past have shown that even the men that go, with maybe some vague hope at least, recognise that the cultural setup is so very different that it is highly unlikely to happen and, if it does, the expectations are going to be very different.

machadinha · Dec 11th, 2007, 01:23

... Or getting a "little fresh" under other circumstances then. Either way I can see Peak's point: It's not like nothing can or will ever happen, that's sort of the other extreme.

As Opoponax noted:

Quote:

Funny, I've yet to meet even one female from ages 15-40 who has not been sexually harassed ANYWHERE.

That's pretty much my experience too, and pretty much the bottom line I guess. I don't think India will be necessarily any better for this (or on a visitor at least); the question is, is it any worse for it. I doubt it.

Look at it this way: At least you'll be away from your close ones for a bit, who statistically are still the most likely to cause you serious harassment or bodily harm.

the opoponax · Dec 11th, 2007, 01:27

Peak, I feel like I should clarify what I meant when I said that I'd experienced some things on dates in the US I would guess are highly unlikely to happen to me in India.

I didn't so much mean that anybody I would date in India would definitely never take things too far.

What I meant was that it's EXTREMELY unlikely that some stranger on a crowded bus is going to try to pull some of the stunts I've been subject to with American guys I'm actually out on a date with.

And, seriously, if some Indian guy on a bus tries to rape me and justifies his behavior with "but you owe me, I bought you dinner!" I will eat my hat. Because I'm more likely to win the Powerball this week than to have that particular scenario take place in that particular situation.

Could something else happen? Could the guy on the bus grope me, or make a lewd comment, or try to get information out of me that would allow him to follow me off somewhere? Sure. But that's no more than a guy on a bus in New York is likely to do to me, anyway. And I know how to deal with that sort of thing, and it's not going to scare me away from traveling.

Since it's unlikely I'll date anyone in India, I consider it equally unlikely that I'm going to find my self with an over-eager date on my hands. And if I did, I'd know what to do about it.

Diana · Dec 11th, 2007, 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aishah

I cannot relate to anything in Mary10's post and I wonder if she has ever been to India? I have never seen any of this offensive behaviour in the many crowded places, including squashed in Metro

Well Aishah, neither have I...but then I'm past 40 so obviously not as irresistible as Mary10 (is that a Perfect 10?)

I mean, how can a man even try to grope my crotch when he's busy on the floor picking up my teeth and helping me with my support hose? Eh? Eh? Speak up child I can't hear you? Or is it that dark man groping my ear that is the problem?

Seriously, that was a very offensive post even without the ageist comments. I am certainly not the type of person to say that women who get sexually harassed are "asking for it" as 99% of the time that is bull. But there are those 1% of women who either are so forward that some guys take them up on what is offered (only to find the "lady" shocked and appalled!) OR that are so repressed that if someone so much as looks at them they feel harassed. Luckily, those types are few and far in between.

Dec 10th, 2007, 21:56	#331
Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,842	It is true that there are different perspectives. India to the visitor is a different place to India to the resident. Even though we are both foreign residents, Aishah probably has different views to mine, having been here longer, not to mention the very large number of miles between us. India to the born, native Indian probably looks like yet another country, and I have heard several Indians talk about how their experiences outside India have given them a different view of their own country. All this is partly to do with with nature of life; partly to do with the nature of India. It can be a very dangerous place; its politics I find utterly depressing. I've been sadly disillusioned by the reality behind the welcoming smiles of several of the families that I know. Women are subject to abuse at home, in the street, on the buses, whatever. I know my wife would never sit next to s unknown man on a bus, and I know that she would expect some sort, albeit relatively trivial, unwelcome contact aboard a crowded bus. Hey! They regularly arrest guys on London's underground railway who make a speciality of putting mirrors on their shoes to look... Oh, never mind. Within the limits of my experience, I think I have a fairly un-rosy view of India! __________________ . Just one member of the IndiaMike Mod Team

Dec 10th, 2007, 22:59	#337
Mehndi Masala Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Winnipeg Canada Posts: 208	India is truly a place of extremes but I went to a movie in Mumbai and sat with a man on my side that was no relation to me and saw none of this behaviour at all. Does it happen? Sure..probably..I've seen a couple in Canada doing ...ummm...something that should be done in private. I have been groped in my home country of Canada. I have friends that live in India. Is it perfect? Not even close. BUT that being said, where is? Is where you live Utopia? How do we all get tickets??? What is the immigration policy? I'm not saying that you don't have valid experiences or that these things don't happen, but to be SO negative and make it sound like it happened EVERYWHERE at ALL TIMES...uhhh...bikini on the bus? Hyper-sensitive or parinoid? I'm not sure...but it sure wasn't my experience or anyone I know. I also TOTALLY disagree with the idea that IM is nothing but 'rosy glasses' blissninnies. I was prepared for the worst as well as the positives. I was braced for all manner of good AND bad thanks to IM warnings. I am grateful that most never happened but I was aware that many things could go horribly wrong and hints on how to deal with it from bedbugs, dirty rooms, rip off cabs, physical danger or discomfort, etc. I think everyone here simply loves Mother India for all her warts, wrinkles, stinky moments, temper tantrums and beauty. For all her flaws (and NO ONE here says there are no flaws) we love her anyways. Just my two cents..ya get what you paid for. Kim __________________ Time flies like an arrow.......... Fruit flies like a banana! http://www.winnipeghenna.com

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Nick-H Loud-mouthed, Noisy Bird Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Chennai, India Posts: 26,842	Indeed. In fact some of our more controversial threads in the past have shown that even the men that go, with maybe some vague hope at least, recognise that the cultural setup is so very different that it is highly unlikely to happen and, if it does, the expectations are going to be very different.

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the opoponax Maha Guru Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Brooklyn, via New Orleans Posts: 1,054	Peak, I feel like I should clarify what I meant when I said that I'd experienced some things on dates in the US I would guess are highly unlikely to happen to me in India. I didn't so much mean that anybody I would date in India would definitely never take things too far. What I meant was that it's EXTREMELY unlikely that some stranger on a crowded bus is going to try to pull some of the stunts I've been subject to with American guys I'm actually out on a date with. And, seriously, if some Indian guy on a bus tries to rape me and justifies his behavior with "but you owe me, I bought you dinner!" I will eat my hat. Because I'm more likely to win the Powerball this week than to have that particular scenario take place in that particular situation. Could something else happen? Could the guy on the bus grope me, or make a lewd comment, or try to get information out of me that would allow him to follow me off somewhere? Sure. But that's no more than a guy on a bus in New York is likely to do to me, anyway. And I know how to deal with that sort of thing, and it's not going to scare me away from traveling. Since it's unlikely I'll date anyone in India, I consider it equally unlikely that I'm going to find my self with an over-eager date on my hands. And if I did, I'd know what to do about it.

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