Behaviour of Tourists in India

Sama

so true. so people do not know what customs are, etc. they just go, not thinking....

I am planning a trip to Tanzania and Zanzibar and in my research found out that Zanzibar is predominately Muslim. I asked my English/Tanzanian friend about covering up in Zanzibar and she said don't worry about it, people are very tolerant, but if a woman shows too much leg or cleavage, she will be stared at, just like ANYWHERE ELSE. However, my friend told me that we won't go where the Italian tourists drive around half naked on their mopeds . (no offense to any Italians, I am only repeating what I've been told!)

wait....actually I DO want to see that!

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MY INDIA, 2005-2008
"Once you have felt the Indian dust, you will never be free of it." (Rumer Godden, 1975)

sticky

Hi again.... been a while

I'd like to throw a few things into this debate, I always used to stay out of these debates here, but after being in india for a while I dont want to anymore.

Obviously not all indian men are eveteasers, but Indian culture (at least the modern indian culture i've seen) promotes this behaviour.

The plot breakdown of 90% of bollywood films is essentially Boy falls for Girl. Girl isnt interested. Boy sings and dances to Girl, ignoring her when she says no, and eventually Girl gives in.

And anyone in india right now cant of missed the Coke adds that are on between world cup matches:
Bunch of animated characters in a jeep, driving around filming things and people, promoting some kind of competition. At teh end of the add, one yells "Look at the beach" the camera pans close and all the guys lean over to stare at a blond haired white girl with huge swinging breasts in a bikini. Tanda Ta Kata

None of this has anything what so ever to do with western culture.

Its my opinion that the only reason that there is such a stink over eveteasing and rapes etc is that indian women are now in a position to complain about this kind of thing.

But, lets not forget, the prevailing wisdom in England and Australia until quite recently was that the clothes a woman is wearing can influence a verdict in a repe trial....
Short skirt your honnor, asking for it she was.

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Flashpackers: Backpackers doing it in style.

Brigit

Darlin I hate to point something out to you, but would you perhaps like to read my profile and notice, I'm English. ] I'm mearly saying There are problems on both sides. I'd like for people to see that. thats all.
Also what are conversations "like these"?

greenchutney

very good points sticky. there was a big debate across the media about the coke ads with aishwarya too.. also the bollywood heroine in general has to out of the dumb bimbo mindset ~ ..she usually does after the marriage which are not covered by the sequels which are not filmed obviously ..who wants that..the imaginery world, la la land, the fantasy in bollywood has to stay that way...

nah~..indian women have always 'complained' in a relative sense, everyone know its there..while its somewhat true that they (indian women) are in a better position to do so now..the media highlighting these, the role of the media in it with awareness and reporting etc etc has been the difference imho.

its an endless debate. i dont want to come across as being defensive but there is plenty of shit here, and everywhere.

sticky

These conversations happen alot here Brigit. Not sure what the other person meant, but I usually stay out of them because people often get really agro.
There's the "Dont paint all with the same brush" side
and the "I'm worried and or annoyed" side

well, thats a rough estimation anyway.
Guess its understandable really, both sides have good points

sticky

In a nutshell....

Thats pretty much my opinion. The problem with the world is that its at least half full of D$#kheads

Brigit

I agree with most of you that the clothes shouldn't matter.
I'm seeing this from the prespective of having fallen in love with my perticuler forcefull Indian man, lived in the culture. Ive seen sevrel good friends having their hart ripped out by some girl who they really wanted to try and make a life with, but who was just up for some fun.
Nick- There are alot of girls in Pushkar anytime of the year having sex with some of the local boys. Some of them almost make money from it. If you don't belive me come and I'll show you. These are nice boys by the way, Fed up morals but nice boys.

Brigit

sticky,
It's something I want people to talk about. Why anyone would get agro though, I don't know, most people should be able to see both sides have fults, BIG ONES.
I want people to talk about it because I think the problem is that its people acting without thinking of the afects

sticky

Im not knocking you in any way, I was just saying that some people get agro about poeple having a different opinion to their own. And that is is talked about here alot. I have no problems with anyone talking about anything really.
I usually stay out of it because
a. Im a bloke, and dont usually groped (has happend a few times though, but never in India)
b. I didnt really have much to offer the debate
and c. I dont really like getting in arguements. Especially when typing.... I always run out of steam before I finish the sentence

greenchutney

what should be done though brigit?..what should supposedly a free functionating democracy do without becoming a taliban?

1: force tourists to have a indiamike login at the passport check at the airport

2: should hand a suggested ettiquette guide to tourists when they arrive..

3: hand out a ettiquette card to locals [the ones that cant read ] like china does...supposedly they are preparing locals for the olympics in 2008..cover your mouth when you sneeze kinda stuff...

4: give all single women locals and tourists tasers/pepper sprays..[hopefully the ones with reliability]

5: on a more serious note, enforcement, enforcement..?

open for some ideas...

MeCasa

Western folks who are <one in heart> with India, protecting the sancity of the Indian culture against evil outsiders, political correctness gone astray. We see a naughty Indian boy, well surely he's copying western traits, hogwash, perhaps he's just being himself?

Nice talkin' with ya darlin', but I'm outa here

<Yogagal & Nick collectively and rightfully breathe sigh of relief>

skinnylatte

greenchutney: This thread, and my response, has got nothing to do with my country, nor with law and order or authoritarianism. I would have very well said exactly the same thing if I had been from Thailand. Lee Kuan Yew has nothing to do with this.

"Ive seen several good friends having their hart ripped out by some girl who they really wanted to try and make a life with, but who was just up for some fun."

Sure. Heartbreak happens everywhere. Men, Indian or not, should get used to it. Maybe they should have known that women don't necessarily see "making a life with [a man]" as a priority anymore, something that is happening in many other Asian cultures too? That doesn't mean the girls are from an immoral or inferior culture. Only that the two have different perspectives on morality and family. If a place wants to open up to tourism, they'd better learn to deal with the negative consequences, or just be another Bhutan. I don't see Thais complaining about negative consequences on their society.

But sticky's point that this is partly about people having differing opinions, stands. I'd love to rise up in defence of Asian (and Indian) culture and tradition, but sometimes the small-mindedness behind the we-are-best/the-west-is-invading approach, really pisses me off.

MeCasa

PS: Let me add one thing here, I look at Indian men as true equals and as such they have no more excuses for bad behavior than I do. I never see them as weak people easily being influenced, but as strong men who have the same choices towards good and/or bad as I do.

Everything is choice, no excuses allowed

greenchutney

it has to do with enforcement also my dear. when you you can get away with eve-teasing, you will continue to do it a lot. if you are in saudi arabia like enforcement, then you wont do it..cause you know you are going to loose that tongue for all you know..and singapore is authoritarian controlled society...and you can do a bunch with authoritarian dictatorial societies...and especially if you live in a smaller country..that too a country of two million people, there are lot of things you can do if you have the money, the intentions...and what not. its a law and order problem..and its very very relevant in this thread as well

you started by comparing other asian societies to india and how you have not seen anything like this....well..let me ask you this then..whats up with many asian women in chiang mai and across south east asia..that are seen with older white men...and i mean by really young asian women with reeeely old white men?> what say you?..and you are telling me that thai's dont complain...?..well i have a thai friend who bemoaned this when we were walking the streets of chiang mai...the decadence, the influence of such tourists and foreigners....who's fault is it?..its a complex issue

like i said, this debate is endless.

skinnylatte

My mention of Asian societies in comparison was raised because I disagreed vehemently with how the thread poster had seemed to portray locals as innocent victims, and foreigners as the evildoers; even in spite of me relating my own eve-teasing experiences (and being absolutely sure I did nothing to attract that attention). I have been molested in Calcutta, and eve-teased in Varanasi. I personally know foreign — Asian — girls who have been raped in India.

When I was groped in a Calcutta night market the first time, I was absolutely appalled not just by the act, but by how the man seemed so sure of himself, that he wasn't going to be punished, this was his right, and yup right after being 'caught', he was going to go a little further down the street and try to grope my other 5 friends. Of course, standing around shrieking wasn't going to help at all.

The comparison to other Asian societies came in because I have not seen this behaviour, and such shocking acceptance of it, in any other parts of Asia I have been in (and I have been in most of it). With the exception of the Middle East, I dare you to name another Asian society, authoritarian or not, that displays a similar level of acceptance to such errant local male behaviour.

Trying to shift the blame onto "those foreigners" is just too cowardly a stand to make.