Death Threats and Police......

Hi Kullugang,
Very sorry to hear of your problems. I will be pretty blunt here so please excuse me for it.
You made two mistakes in your initial deal
1. Take people's word on who owned the land and not getting it verified by the Patwari, or getting the map from the patwari chauki and verifying it yourself against Khasra Numbers, Khatauni and Khata.
2. you succumbed to the sellers first attempt to extract more money from you.

Rule of the thumb while buying land is to verify it physically either through a patwari or yourself. No Patwari worth his salt will refuse an offer of a grand or so for a couple of hours work. You have to pander to him, but it is better in the end as he is the one who in the end you have to deal with for every little thing. He is the verifying authority and let me put it very clearly - nothing in the area happens without his consent. Even the DM at times is powerless if the Patwari puts in an adverse report.
If in case the Patwari still refuses to come to verify the plots, then the next thing to do is to get a copy of the map of the area from the Patwari Chowki. They cannot refuse you this basic right. If you demand the map they have to give it to you. The map contains plot numbers on it too and with the help of Plot Number known as Khasra number you can verify the ownership of land by getting a copy of the Khatauni from the Tehsil office. Again it is available for a fee, which is a very nominal amount. All this you can do yourself and don't need anyone else.

You really shouldn;t have paid the seller any more money after the registry was done. When he was harassing you you should have lodged an NCR against him at the Local Police Station. If the Inspector had refused to lodge the complaint you should have gone straight to the SP. Where foreign nationals are concerned the higher Officials are more wary.

Anyway - now here is what I think you should do - first verify physically whether the plot of land you have bought is actually the plot of land you believe is yours.
Don't believe what the Forest People say - as per law they are bound to follow the revenue maps and records. Their own maps predate the revenue maps (the patwari is the revenue officer in a sense) by 30 odd years, so in case of a dispute, the forest maps are no reference at all.
The revenue survey was done from 1957 - 1960 and the forest maps are from 1930's. The forestwalla's know that they cannot bother you even if their maps show your land to be within the forest area. So tell them that.
If your plot lies in the govt. land (all land that is not owned by any individual and lies outside the marked boundaries of forest area on Revenue maps is Govt. land)then you can sue the guy who sold it to you for fraud. The Govt. may also take up the case book the fraudster for falsifying the records. Here in Uttarakhand Govt Land is called Swayam land - which roughly translates to who ever takes over becomes the defacto owner - but - no one can register such land but the govt. The person who is in possession can use it but should not build on it, can transfer it unofficially to someone else for a sum of money but officially cannot sell it.
Based on your findings, take the next step. If it is indeed forest land then again you can sue the seller for fraud, if it is not then you can make a case against the forestwallas for threatening you, stealing from you and intimidating you and your labourers. (I don't think you will have to make it official just a very firm threat to do so should be enough to make most of them keep their hands off you).
As far as I can see the seller has either greased a lot of palms or has friends who are willing to play his tune and harass you and extract more money from you. You paid once and he thinks you will pay again and again and again!
Next go around making a lot of noise. Contact all these myriad 24 hour news channels they have nothing much to report and your story is a juicy one if you can get someone interested in picking it up. So go and round them up and bring them enmasse to your village and let the world see what is being done to you.
DO NOT under any circumstances pay anymore money to the seller. Better to cut your loss (if it comes to that) at the minimum than give more money where it is not deserved.
A question for you - is your mutation process complete?
Do not believe any reports that anyone says about the ownership of land. Most often than not people do not really know which plot belongs to whom and the one in possession is often not the owner, even if he has been on the land for generations and the whole village may vouch for it. What the Revenue Records say is the final word that is recognised by law everything else is just heresay.
I have been emphasising this point of being very diligent in checking records before buying just for this one reason.
I hope your problem will sort itself out, but when there is so much bad blood in the area for you, you should move out and make your home elsewhere. This is what I would do, but not before sorting things out.
Best of luck to you. If there is any help you need including help from the press please let me know.

For those of us who aren't involved in land acquisition, could you explain what this (rather startling sounding) question means?

And you thought it was only virus that mutates. This is a process in which the name of the owner is changed in the land records papers with the local district office. The final step of land purchase.

Why would anyone want to live in an area called "death valley"?
And where theres very dangerous people and big corruption.

Not the best place to raise a family.

Sounds like you'll be better off back in England.

Kullugang

Sounds like someone who knows what planet we are on.


Very best and let me know re any help needed in Delhi stays to sort it. You can PM me.

Great post, l-i-h.

Thank god one of us has practical wisdom on this situation.

Kullugang - In the unlikely event that this turns out to be Forest land, then the whole chain of officers is implicated in something? How could the Registrar allow forest land to be sold? We will need answers – if that is the case the thing is turning in your favour.

If it is not Forest land then what has the seller sold, assuming that the seller of the plot, is the same person named on the Khasra, i.e. the official land ownership record lodged at the Tehsil’s office – Again the Patwari and Register have allowed something that doesn’t correlate to slip through, and are culpable. You’ll know about the Forest Deptt. position after meeting them, but I would say you are innocent on that one and they can do nothing to you personally, moreover we demand that they do something - Grave error of the Forest Deptt. to confiscate your stuff without proof. What proof did they offer to show that the land was theirs. Keep quiet, Let them fire off the ammunition and in reply Demand to see their proof, Khasra and map. No allowing them to intimidate you, highly polite but highly Firm.

Overall then, despite the losses, hassle and confiscation of equipment, is this more a case of hustling getting out of hand? Difficult to comment on the social side of things locally, Being seen as a cash cow, well one is envied that way by some, including that dodgy temple priest. But I’m sure it can be turned around with some concerted PR. People in the hills don’t allow the marijuana plants to grow up in their garden areas, it’s difficult to stop it, after all I’s a weed! And a sign that nobody is at home for some time, it’s noticed, houses are done over, as was yours, maybe not out of vendetta but plain old vandalism. It does happen as you know but with these events being in a bit of a chain it’s possible to succumb to some conspiracy theory – but overwhelmingly there isn’t one right! Good luck tomorrow. Marshal your resources and strength, Rehearse with your wife your own questions and if you get time try a Puja at the local Devta.

Thanks, Nick and Kate.
What I have written in my post is exactly what i have been emphasizing on the forum since i first joined it. People often do not bother to check the records properly and get stiffed. Thorough scrutiny is absolutely essential - that is the primary qualification of buying land. It may well turn out that Kullugang was mislead in identification of land. He may have been shown one piece and the actual registry that took place may have been for another patch of land elsewhere in the Village, where he has been preparing land with the belief that it is his may well turn out to be Forest land or Govt. Land. If it is govt. land he can hold on to it and let people scream blue murder till they are red in the faces and no one can evacuate him except the govt. itself and that too is a long drawn process takes years meanwhile he can do what he pleases with the land and try to recoup his money's worth from it.
I am sure the plot of land that is mentioned on the Registry is located somewhere else in a place where access is difficult and he may not be able to build.
I am surprised that the In Laws didn't advice him to check the records in the first place. Every villager in India knows just how screwed up the land ownership is. Honest people prefer to sell only after verification by Patwari. Why they let him put in his money in a plot that was not verified is beyond my comprehension.
Anyway I hope my post helps Kullu Gang in solving his problem, that is what it was meant for.

Zabardast post indeed livinhimalayas.

can i request moderator if it is possible to merge this thread to 'WHAT CAN I BUY FOR 5 LAKHS IN HILLS'

Nah keep this one here and concentrated for Kullugang is in process of sorting this and we are with them towards the outcome...

Indeed... this thread is an entirely separate story.

Your a hundred percent right we should not have taken his word and given him more money in the last 24hrs so many things have come to light, the person who is the seller is a drunk his a young man who drinks beats his wife and drinks some more ,what we couldnt understand is how has he done this, last night my familyfound out that he is getting advice and help from his ex employer who is involved in politics here so that has brought a lot of things that are happening to light I have to go to see the SP in a couple of hours and have a sneaky feeling that his has been informed about us by this man I will see if he takes any action first if not my family and friends are going to send a petition to the indian embassy in London including contacting the press.......unfortuantly having two kids 11 and 13 I cannot bring them up here in this enviroment so after all this is done and dusted Kullu Gang will seize to be.All mutation has been done we hold all papers and the putwari says there are no numbers on the plot and now tells us there are 4 people have also put a claim in for the land or has papers so either its one plot being claimed by four or its four plots that got to be devided I really dont know its just so confuseing.Thanks again for your excellent advice and offer for help I will keep you posted...
Kind Regards Darren

Thanks family on the move yes things have been tough its been uphill for a while now although we live in the mountains I did not think I would this type of thing would be such a mountain to climb.Some people are being so supportive that I think things may turn so they will have to help us .....what I am so devistated about is I have been comeing here for 20 years never been in trouble loved the people for being so wild and free but now the world has changed and my god so has everyone I did ignore advice when we did first arrive with my family which was dont settle here people have changed and in the 3 years we have been back everyone has had a small go on trying to get money from us.I have a friend who is from Trinidad and lives in the UK I asked why she dont go to settle back in Trinidad in years to come and her answer was I dont want to die and lose all that I have worked for it seems to be a trend if your returning to your origins from a proporous part of the world.

Thanks again I will have a update on what went on today at the SP office
Kind Regards Darren

Hi Kate the kids do have Bitish passports and have PIO cards for india they were both born in Kullu but have spent 8 years of there lives in the UK they are aged 11 and 13 .